00:00:00 Simona: Fear was a huge one for me and that had me stuck and I know it has so many people stuck. The fear comes up and we're like, oh, you know, we can't make it through this or it's too scary or I don't know what I'm going to find underneath.

00:00:20 Chazmith: Welcome to Our Power Is Within. I'm your host, Chazmith, and my mission for this podcast is to inspire you to take your power back and to realize that you are the healer that you've been looking for all along. I believe that we are all capable of healing in mind, in body, and in soul. Today's episode is sponsored by Primal Trust Academy and Community, which is created by Dr. Cathleen King, one of my dear friends. 

00:00:50 Chazmith: Primal Trust is a membership site that helps you find freedom from chronic illness and trauma, and it is quickly growing as one of the largest worldwide online healing communities. This membership includes access to Regulate, which is a level one comprehensive program to self-regulate the brain and nervous system, focusing on both a top-down and a bottom-up approach. It also includes level two mentorship, where we go deeper into the inner work of attachment and trauma healing, and an all-new level three program called Expansion and Integration, which I am so excited about.

00:01:28 Chazmith: This program is all about supporting us as we emerge back into life after a period of chronic illness, burnout, or dysregulation. This new Level 3 program is actually co-led by Simona Irwin, who happens to be our guest on today's episode. And it will also be featuring special guest experts as well. In addition to the Level 1 through 3 programs, you will have access to study groups, forum support, and daily live classes and more. To learn more, click the link in the show notes and use the code OPIW to save 5%. 

00:02:10 Chazmith: Now, as I already mentioned, our guest today is Simona Irwin, and she's actually back on the podcast for round two. I adore her. I had so much fun chatting with her the first time that I knew I had to have her back on, especially because she's up to so many new, fun, and exciting things since our last conversation. Simona is actually well-known in the Primal Trust Community as not only a new level three leader, but she leads journey groups in the Primal Trust and she's also a mentor for your one-on-one support. So if you are loving the message that she shares with us today, you know where to find her. Please enjoy.

00:02:58 Chazmith: Simona, yay, you're back. Thanks for coming back to the podcast and joining me again.

00:03:02 Simona: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:03:06 Chazmith: Of course. So for everyone who is tuned in and listening, as I just mentioned, Simona is back for her second time on the podcast. And the first time that she was here, we got to listen to her recovery story, which was really helpful. I felt… like we went over some really neat things that aren't often talked about, on here. I think if I'm going to recall my memory, you even shared some really cool stuff that you went through to help you with sleep. 

00:03:37 Simona: Yeah. That’s right.

00:03:39 Chazmith: Yeah. So I'll drop links in the show notes for people so that they can listen to that episode if they want to learn more about you and your background and the journey that you've been on in your recovery story. But we're really not going to dive into that today because today we're really here to talk about what came after that episode. What came after you kind of got to a place where you declared yourself recovered?

00:04:51 Simona: Yes.

00:04:06 Chazmith: And lots. Lots has come.

00:04:07 Simona: Lots has come. Yeah. Just like a really interesting journey. I think we all, or many of us start with this goal of like, I'm doing this and I just don't want to have these symptoms. And that's like the main goal. And sometimes it turns into something totally different.

00:04:28 Chazmith: Yeah. Yeah. So let's start there. Let's talk about what life has been like for you after recovering and regulating your nervous system.

00:04:41 Simona: Yeah, so I'll kind of end off a little bit right around the stage of my journey where the symptoms were no longer chronic and they were kind of left. And the first thing, I like to speak to this because I feel like people end up in this stage and they're like, you know, what's happening or is this normal? And so for me, what I found was that there was a period that it was almost where I thought I'd be really excited. And it was kind of a bit of now what? You know, I've been focused and had all this drive to do all these tools and everything. And then I kind of made it and it was, like a little bit anticlimactic when I got there. And I've heard that from a few other people too. 

00:05:30 Simona: And then it was interesting. It was like, I stepped out of that and of course was so happy and grateful and, you know, living a great life. And I noticed still, like some of the tendencies to like, over focus on new things. So it's like, "Oh, what's happening in my relationships or what's happening with my body or my weight or how I look or?" And it was like these little, kind of pieces started to come in. I've also heard that a lot too. So I think it's helpful sometimes for people to speak about it. Cause they're like, well, I'm feeling better, but actually now I noticed that I'm super regulated and I've gained all this weight or this is happening or I turned to my relationships and I'm not really understanding what's happening there.

00:06:21 Simona: So for me, that was really true and kind of brought me to, I guess, like the next stage of the journey, which was just a much more deeper dive into myself and my authenticity, who I wanted to kind of show up as in my life and, you know, work and kind of all those things came up.

00:06:43 Chazmith: So it's interesting because as you say this, I think, oh, like kind of the way you explained it, it's almost as if those things just showed up or just became a part of you, but I kind of wonder if they always were there. But there was this period of life where we were just not as self-aware to notice that. And then when you have the chronic symptoms and unwellness, you're so hyper-focused on healing that and just that, that you don't even make space for all the other stuff. And then when that's starting to feel better, it's almost as if that hyper-vigilance has always been present and it's still present. And so because we don't have to be hyper-vigilant around our symptoms now, we zoom in and focus on other things in that capacity.

00:07:31 Simona: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think it's part, like the hypervigilance and then part of, you know, when we think of the TMS or like the Sarno model too, it's also part of just what was brewing underneath the whole time and then it's ta-da! 

00:07:48 Chazmith: Okay, like yeah, like the perfectionism or the, you know, the little different personality traits that kind of can sometimes drive us into not feeling well.

00:07:57 Simona: Yeah. And also just the disconnection from the self, right? And having, you know, working maybe in places that aren't fully aligned with us or, you know, just being out of alignment in different ways in our lives. And when we get the symptoms where it's like, that's our whole focus. So we can't really look at these other areas of our life, but then as they kind of start to melt away through, you know, the discipline of whatever practice people are using, and it's like, "Oh, like here's what's underneath, like a little bit more and a little bit deeper." And then you also have this, for me, it was like, okay I, you know, I'm not really interested in doing brain retraining neuroplasticity rounds like all the time and so what's my new daily practice gonna look like and what interests me and how can I incorporate something like that will help me through these different periods and the ebbs and flows that are so normal and natural in life. And so I also kind of went looking for that too.

00:09:03 Chazmith: I love that because, yeah, it's really easy to sometimes just want to or not even want, but think that you need to just default to, like one certain kind of tool or modality. But then there's all this resistance. And I think there's a period where resistance is normal and necessary to overcome. And then I think as you get further through the journey, in my experience, I think it's about really leaning into what you actually enjoy, because you said that, like, what would I enjoy doing? I don't want to do one thing all the time. So what could I do that I actually would enjoy so that I can sustain it, and it would still be supportive for me?

00:09:44 Simona: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And for me, I kind of stumbled into, like two different, like worlds that I've been loving so much. One is like the mindfulness space so I've become like a pretty dedicated meditator which is pretty profound considering at one point in my journey, it just felt impossible to, you know, the idea of sitting for an hour with just, like this mind. When I was unwell, it just felt impossible. And now it feels so amazing to just have that stillness and be able to kind of go into that space. So that's been a big part of my journey since, you know, ending kind of rounds and the neuroplasticity tools, really adopting like a daily mindfulness practice and just how similar actually the philosophy and, you know, the tools are. They're like in perfect alignment with the brain retraining tools, which is really interesting.

00:10:48 Chazmith: Okay. So do you actually do meditation for most days an hour?

00:10:54 Simona: Yeah, I meditate in the morning and then later in the afternoon for like half an hour, half an hour. And I've been doing it, a couple of years now.

00:11:05 Chazmith: Do you do guided or just literally, I'm just gonna go lay down and just observe my thoughts?

00:11:11 Simona: Yeah, so I do, I kind of do what's kind of called, like insight meditation. So basically, it's not guided. I sit down and I focus on my breath. And I just noticed, like where my breath kind of moves in my body. And I do that for a little bit. And then as thoughts arrive or like sensations in the body, I just kind of name them and watch them and watch, like how they come up and how they go down and how it's all kind of impermanent. And that's the practice. It's not super sexy, exciting practice, but the amazing part and why I think it's such a great combination with the brain retraining world is this idea of, you are the neutral observer and you're just kind of watching it happen. But the difference is that when it's unpleasant, it's the exact same as when it's pleasant. So you're not trying to hold on either side. You're just kind of letting it come and go and just noticing that natural cycle, that things come and go and nothing stays.

00:12:19 Chazmith: It's like what you learn in the Vipassana retreats.

00:12:24 Simona: Yeah, that’s exactly right.

00:12:26 Chazmith: Yeah, and in a sense, if you really start thinking about it, there's so much overlap in so many tools. That's why I think it's so important for people to have access to learn about a widespread array of tools and then really begin to lean into what feels right for them or what they enjoy doing because so many different things can have similar benefits. When you explain how you're doing your meditation, it very much also reminds me of somatic tracking and pain reprocessing, because you're literally just following the sensations without attaching anything to them and just observing them. 

00:13:03 Chazmith: And in that process, you're actually teaching your brain to no longer perceive one sensation or the next as a threat or, yeah, like basically as a problem. And when you're doing the meditation that you're doing, it's essentially the same thing because you're not attaching or labeling them as good, bad, right or wrong. Maybe the brain already has, like a danger message going down, which creates a sensation, but you're not feeding into it and sending a message back.

00:13:32 Simona: Yep, that's exactly right. And you know, when I was in my recovery journey, I had these moments of, you know, as I had to like, really, face fear was a huge one for me. And that had me stuck. And I know it has so many people stuck. Fear comes up, and we're like, "Oh, we can't make it through this, or it's too scary, or I don't know what I'm gonna find underneath." So I'm gonna not do this round, or I'm gonna not do this practice. And in my practice, there was a part of my journey where I just had to face the fear, just walk right into it. And through that, it became like a bit of a spiritual journey where it was like I ended up walking through the fear.

00:14:14 Simona: And then it was really clear to me that the fear was an illusion to begin with, and that I was perfectly fine. And it really kind of landed right in my heart, that lesson. And I find it so interesting for myself and others that the chronic healing journey almost becomes a bit of, like the spiritual awakening journey as you go through it, which has become such a gift and such a blessing for many of us. I know for some people, it's not. Like they're just, like symptom free. Thank you. Like going back to my life, which is totally cool. And for some people, I find that it awakens something in them and they just starts a whole new life journey for them.

00:15:02 Chazmith: I know there's going to be people who are interested in this discussion about getting through that fear. Because yeah, it's a big one that I think a lot of us face, right? Like that's how that spiral starts going down. Essentially, right, we get it, we get… we start with like one symptom or a couple symptoms or some weird things or something we can't understand or doctors don't explain. And then bam, that fear kicks in. And then it just, like kind of spirals from there. And often the fear, so much deeper anyways than just the symptoms, as you were just saying, like we learned that it's so much deeper, the whole journey becomes so much deeper than just the symptoms in general. And that's just what's on the surface. But what tools or approaches did you use to really help you lean into that fear and finally break through it and see it as an illusion?

00:15:55 Simona: Yeah, so there was, a few things that really helped me. I feel like I had, like, an 11 out of 10 cases here. And it was really hard. And so for anyone who's struggling with that, I just like, really want to honor when you're in it. It's so real, and it's so hard. And, you know, it's really keeps us stuck in a loop. For me, there was, a couple things. So one was a bit of an app called the DARE response. We talked a little bit about it last time I was here, so I won't go into it too much. But it's really the mindset and, you know, the way that he presents everything. For me, that was like a bit of a lifeline.

00:16:38 Simona: And then I also started to learn a bit of the work of Byron Katie, which is around, questioning your thought. And through that work, there was often a question about, are you having, like a future image? And then the person would ask me, you know, is that future image real? Or is it imagination? And it seems like such a simple question. But the more someone asked me that, the more I was like, oh, it's imagination. And then I realized, "Oh, this imagination is what's causing my stress hormones." And because, you know, I have this hit of fear and the fear is attached to thoughts from the past. So if I had trauma in my past and thought maybe I can't handle this or this is too much or I'm trapped or, you know, the classic fear thoughts that people have. 

00:17:32 Simona: So when that sensation comes up in your body, your thought is going to match it. So from the past, and then you project a future in the image of something really bad happening. And so through the work of Byron Katie, I learned, you know, and this also ties into mindfulness too, that I need to just be here in the present moment. I need to name when I'm in the past or the future. and like just take one step forward or two steps forward. And that was ultimately, I mean, it took time, but ultimately I was able to see past and future. And I was like, you know what, I actually don't know what's gonna happen if I just walk straight into this sphere. I don't know for sure, so I'm just gonna do it. So I did it and then it was like the curtain fell, you know, and then I saw it was just, it was nothing. You know, there was actually nothing there except for peace. And that was profound.

00:18:34 Chazmith: Okay, I have some follow up questions. So you were, keep referring to walking into it. Now we're referring to, like one specific fear or just it in general, like of, like all the random fears that would present themselves for you?

00:18:47 Simona: Yeah, that's a great question. It, for me, it was kind of one at a time. So sometimes it was purposeful or sometimes I would be doing my neuroplasticity practice and fear would come up in it. But I know that happens to a lot of people. So I'm doing my visualization or I get to a place of, you know, peace and like happy visualization. And then it's like some tremendous fear shows up or a thought of something terrible shows up. 

00:19:19 Simona: And what I learned is that I actually needed to kind of call it up when it came, welcome it, and just be like, you get to be here with me, and just like really put my focus on it and just basically completely surrender to it. So it's kind of funny that I keep saying walking in. It's a little bit of both. It's like walking and then surrender and walking and surrender. It's a little bit of, like a dance that you kind of do with that until you start to see that it's not as serious as your mind would like you to believe.

00:19:55 Chazmith: Yeah. So when you do the work with the, like the inquiry work of Byron Katie, are you doing this on yourself or do you have somebody guiding you?

00:20:05 Simona: Yeah. So I often do it on my own. There's like four questions and we can put the link in the show notes to the questions, but it's basically, you know, is it true? You know, can I know for sure that this is true? And then it's semantically like, what does it feel like when I believe that this thought, and then who would I be without this thought? And so, it's just, I would often do it with myself and I would just ask. And what I noticed was when I got to that last question of like, who would I be? You know, for example, if I had some sort of fear come up and the fear is, you know, you shouldn't do this or else you're not going to be able to sleep tonight or something like that, right? 

00:20:51 Simona: So then I would go through it and it's, well, can I know for sure that that's true? And it's like, no, I could never know. And then what's it like when I believe it? I noticed that I have these images of me not sleeping at night. I'd be like, well, are those, imagination? And it's like, that's imagination. And then who would I be if I just, if that thought didn't even pop up? Well, I would just do this thing and I'd be happy. So then I would follow that and I'd be like, okay, I'm just going to do it, I'm not going to stop myself based on an imagination of the future.

00:21:25 Chazmith: Yeah, because well, that's the thing. That's why they say we're so powerful. And we're always creating, consciously or unconsciously, because that's where that unconscious creation kicks in, right? You're imagining that you're not going to be able to sleep tonight, and then you don't do the thing you really want to do. And then because you spent all this time and effort imagining, maybe even unconsciously, that you couldn't sleep, and then you don't sleep, and then you validate that. You're like, oh, see, I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep. And you didn't even do the thing, and you still didn't sleep. So we're just getting stuck in this constant creation. It's in a sense, it's visualizing, right? 

00:22:02 Chazmith: Everyone's like, "Oh, when brain retraining, everyone is so resistant to visualization." Not everyone, but there's quite a lot of people that are so resistant to visualization. I was one of them at first, and I thought I couldn't visualize until I realized, "Oh my gosh, we're literally all visualizing all the time." And a lot of it is very unconscious. And exactly what we don't want, like you said, the fear thoughts and visuals that come into our mind, and we're just making a conscious choice to now shift what we visualize and focus on.

00:22:34 Simona: Yes, that's exactly right. We spend so much time visualizing the worst case scenario or things like, you know, someone says something to us and we say like, oh, that means that they don't like us. And then we imagine that they don't like us and we react based on a thought. And when we always react is based on our thinking. It's like we never even get to know another person. We're never in the present moment because we're always in this reactive state and protective. And then we delete things from our lives, like people or foods or situations. It's like, "Oh, that's going to hurt me. That's going to hurt me." So I'm going to like be, super small in the corner. And then that's, I think, how many of us find ourselves in these chronic conditions because we end up, fear, attention and making our lives really small.

00:23:26 Chazmith: Yeah, so, okay, I have two more questions following up to this conversation. You were talking about how you can sometimes just notice, "Oh, that's actually past. Oh, that's, future." Like, that's not even a reality that hasn't happened. Do you ever do that in your meditations? Because you, in your meditations, you'd like, notice your, where your breath is, or you notice the sensation, you notice it come, you notice it go? Like you notice that thought, that sensation? Do you also notice, like, Oh, past? Oh, future? Like, do you ever do that? Yeah.

00:23:54 Simona: Yes, very much and it's, for me, it's been a huge part of my practice and also really, like learning. For me, at least, it's like almost everything is from our past, even the definition of words. If someone raises an eyebrow, and in our past someone has raised an eyebrow right before they yelled at us, then we see that and we're like, "Oh, that person hates me." Again, it's just from the past. We actually have no idea in the moment. 

00:24:27 Simona: That's the way our brains work, it's like they pick these conditionings up to try to keep us safer. So we understand social cues and obviously a lot of that is super important. But when we question it, we start to realize, like I'm actually putting a lot of belief and conditioning on to the present moment. And so the mindfulness work and kind of the thought watching work is really about removing some of that conditioning and just being like, okay, what is here right now? Like, and it's usually, sensation that comes and goes, thoughts that come and go, you know, and it's nothing so intensely serious that we need to worry about it.

00:25:13 Chazmith: Yeah, and I just want to normalize it for people, for anyone who's listening, because I know how often in this journey we can feel so alone and like something's wrong with us. We're having certain experiences that make us different. It's not true at all. So many of us, I would say, go through all of this, right? I can attest to how many times I'm just laying in bed, whether it's before I fall asleep or even sometimes, right, when I wake up in the morning and everything is seemingly great. And then all of a sudden a thought, like some future scenario that can be so morbid or horrible, worst case, comes in and I can instantly feel the adrenaline, like the cortisol kicking into my body and that heightened sense of adrenaline. And so, yeah, we're not alone. We're not alone. But there's a way out or through.

00:26:10 Simona: Yeah. It's like the way out is that we notice and we name it. "Oh, that's a thought and that's an imagination." And we don't try to stop it. It's like I tell people that the mind makes thoughts, the brain makes thoughts, just like the mouth makes saliva. And it's going to happen forever. And it's not personal, and it's not necessarily meaningful, but its job is to make thoughts, and it's always going to make thoughts. And so our job is to decide, you know, if we're interested in a thought or not, and if we need to kind of follow it through this whole imagination or not.

00:26:50 Chazmith: Yeah, I love that. So other than your meditation, what else do you do daily? Or is it more less routine and more dependent day to day on what you feel you need?

00:27:03 Simona: Yeah, so the other thing that I found that has been like, so transformative and something I never thought that I would do ever was at some point, Dr. Cathleen King mentioned 5Rhythms dance, which is kind of, you know, I think more people maybe know like ecstatic dance or like conscious dance and movement. And so, something about that, when she said, I was like, "Oh, I just, I never had the opportunity when I was younger to dance." I was always in some sort of survival, serious situation, but it was always in my heart. Like I thought dancers were so amazing and I wanted to be part of that and just hadn't had the opportunity. So I ended up going to a local class here and just absolutely fell in love with it.

00:27:55 Simona: And basically it's just a somatic conscious movement practice. So it's not like dance steps or anything. You're just kind of showing up there's this wave of music which is like actually quite similar to like the sympathetic wave where it starts slow and goes really kind of high and a bit chaotic and then down to total stillness, so there's like so many cool parallels with, you know, doing the nervous system work and the 5Rhythms practice. 

00:28:25 Simona: But for me, it was like showing up, listening to the facilitator and really giving myself permission to let go and let this body move and let it express. And it's become, I go like every week, like I do it myself during the day. I went from like a super stiff person who did not express themselves, to someone who dances 5Rhythms in the park with, like where there's people walking by and I feel the level of embodiment that has brought me is incredible.

00:29:06 Chazmith: Yeah, it sounds freeing, right? I could imagine going to my first class and being so stiff. There's this feeling inside of you like you do want to move, but you're worried about what everyone else is thinking even though they're just moving. 

00:29:23 Simona: Yeah, exactly. 

00:29:24 Chazmith: Yeah. Anytime I've ever gone to concerts and stuff and I watch the people who just move wild and crazy. I'm always like, wow, you're amazing. That's so cool, like.

00:29:34 Simona: I know that is these people when I saw, like the facilitator the first time she, kind of, like, demonstrated the 5Rhythms. I was like, this is someone who knows her body in a way that I can't even comprehend at this time. Even with all the practices that I had done and all the spiritual work and stuff I had done my whole life, I was not in my body the way her or the other longer-term dancers were. 

00:30:08 Simona: It was so inspiring. I was like, I want that. I want to be one of those people who dances freely at concerts, and it feels myself, and knows myself. So I've been doing that for like a year and a half and it has been so transformative. And also it's like, it helps you release, like it helps you release stored issues in your tissues. And so it's a real compliment. Once you feel comfortable with loud music and dancing and bodies and people and smells, I really, really encourage people to try some sort of conscious dance or conscious movement practice because it's a game changer to get to know this body.

00:30:53 Chazmith: And so when you're dancing, it's not about worrying about how you look when you're dancing or how you're moving, or if you're doing a cool move. It's just about allowing your body to move in the way it wants to move.

00:31:05 Simona: Yeah, that's right. And sometimes it's like, weird, right? Like sometimes you look a little bit weird or, you know, sometimes it is really beautiful. Sometimes you're kind of like, you roll on the ground a little bit, or you just move one hand or one finger. It's really interesting because as you do it more, it's like you almost hear how your body wants to move and you're willing to do it and then that connects you further with your body or sometimes, it's like you're inspired. You know, sometimes we dance outside and it's like "Oh, we move like the wind or like the trees." And you kind of pick up on things or the group in a different way and you find yourself dancing with people or around them. And it's like there's this level of connection and embodiment that personally, I haven't experienced in any other type of community. So very special.

00:31:56 Chazmith: Nice. I wonder if people can find, like online videos on YouTube, if they're not at a place in their journey where they're ready to go somewhere.

00:32:03 Simona: Yeah, I think the founder, her name is Gabrielle Roth. And I'm sure there's like, I mean, it's been around for a long time. It's just new for me. I'm like, there's a whole like, underworld of like, this incredible community that I'm just so brand new too, but people can Google 5Rhythms and there's teachers everywhere, all over the world. And yeah, they can check it out.

00:32:28 Chazmith: Very cool. That sounds so fun. 

00:32:31 Simona: It is so fun. 

00:32:33 Chazmith:  I love dancing, but I don't do that kind of dancing so much outside of my kitchen yet. But, you know, I like to go, partner dancing. But that's really not totally allowing your own personal expression. You know, that's just following a lead, but it's still dancing. So it's a start. It's still a start. 

00:32:52 Simona: Yeah, definitely. 

00:32:53 Chazmith: So when we talked last, you were a big business woman before you got sick. And when we talked last, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that you had actually started and you'd been running like your own business. 

00:33:07 Simona: Yep, that's right.

00:33:07 Chazmith: Do you still do that? 

00:33:10 Simona: Yeah, I left my corporate job. And that was also scary and started my own consulting business and my own brand. So I have a brand of, like functional nutrition products for teens based around, like energy, attention, focus, and sleep. I have two little kids that are kind of getting into the teen stage. And so I just really, you know, it was just on my heart to just create something. And it's the industry that I've been in for 20 some years. So that's kind of one project that I'm working on with my amazing business partner. It's called Ramp, Drink Ramp. And yeah, it's been really fun. 

00:33:51 Simona: And then I'm also, which is funny, I think last time we talked, we were talking about how I was like not coaching and not doing anything. I was like, yeah, I'm like zero interest. Happy to just share my story. But then I have been in Dr. Cathleen King's community for forever. And then at some point, she approached me and just said, you know, would you be interested in doing some mentoring? And then… so I was like, okay, sure, I'll try it out. And then that became pretty huge that now it's turned into, group, journey groups within her platform and teaching classes there and teaching the mentorship partially too. So that's also really blossomed.

00:34:34 Chazmith: Yeah, tell me more. I was interested. I knew you were doing all the Dr. Cat stuff, but I was like, oh, I wonder if she still has her business or if she gave that up or if this is, like kind of like another side passion project as well.

00:34:47 Simona: Yeah, so I'm doing both. I think we talked about before just like, I really had a tendency for workaholism and just this really intense giving of myself to work but without, you know, without necessarily getting a lot back from it. So it's been really important for me as I go into new things. I am the type of person that has the capacity for bigger things or more than one thing. And that feels good for me, but I'm much more specific now on where I put my time and how much time, making sure I have help, you know, making sure that I also don't take things with the level of urgency that I used to. And that's really allowed me to kind of spread myself in this way. 

00:35:34 Simona: Yeah. So the journey group side, so the mentoring on Primal Trust has been amazing. I mean, I think anytime you're able to take a difficult situation and turn it into hope, and connection for other people, it just feels so good. So that piece is incredible. And then these journey groups, I kind of dreamed up with Cat because I was feeling like, you know, people take programs and they take it like through their mind, right? It's like they watch the videos or they do the rounds, but it's really very up here.

00:36:10 Simona: And I really wanted to curate more of an experience for people to like, get into their bodies and start to feel their emotions and start to feel like the sensations and start to feel what it's like to be in front of a group on Zoom and like what do you feel in your body and how can we help you resource that to get used to it, to be able to share more of you. And all of these things are so important when you're working on recovering or healing, you know, from chronic illness and other symptoms. We're just like starting, I think we're only in like four classes or so in the journey groups, but it's been amazing so far. Just doing the practices together, people sharing and then like buddying up and yeah, it's been so great.

00:37:01 Chazmith: Okay, so when you mentor, you mentor the Regulate and the Primal Trust?

00:37:07 Simona: Yeah, I do mentoring for, kind of, all the levels of her program. And then the journey groups are just for the Levels One and Two, so that the Regulate and the mentorship.

00:37:20 Chazmith: Very cool. Is that an extra charge that people pay once they're in the program?

00:37:25 Simona: Yes. So the program is just, it's a regular kind of low monthly rate. And then there's study groups and there's like a lot of, kind of, options that people can turn to within the platform. But then this, because it's separate and it's me and my time and it's a separate charge that people invest in either a bigger group or like a smaller curated group. And it's a much lower cost than just one-on-one mentoring.

00:37:51 Chazmith: Right, yeah. Now, how is it different than the study groups that are offered?

00:37:56 Simona: Yeah, so it's different. The study groups are, like, peer-led. So ultimately, it's people that are in the same stage of the program going through it together and just kind of sharing what they've learned. And so this is different because it's someone who's been through the process leading it. And so someone that kind of has, you know, a level of regulation can really like hold the space, be there, answer questions and share their story and experience with the group. And I found that a lot of people, while the study groups are amazing and you know, I'm still in my study group and love it so much. I also found that sometimes people really want someone to just help to walk them through the journey, especially at the beginning, and really kind of guide them there. And so it feels nice to be able to do that.

00:38:46 Chazmith: Yeah, yeah, because sometimes like, you know, a lot of people come in with, like brain fog or dysautonomia or depersonalization and things that can really cloud our capacity to focus and feel overwhelmed really easy. And so while these programs that are more comprehensive are phenomenal, because they do cover all the bases, they can be a lot. And so yeah, a little hand holding and a little bit of guidance can go a long way.

00:39:13 Simona: Yeah, like all they need to do then is just show up, right. It's like, show up. I'm gonna tell you, you know, the material that we're covering. We're gonna go through the exercises together, you know, fill in, kind of parts of the workbook together. And then you've kind of done your work too. So you kind of feel, you do have that level of accountability and like, okay, even if it's hard for me to show up, you know, every single day, I'm going to do maybe a little bit of this practice and then show up here every week. And I'm going to get a benefit from that. And so that's really what I wanted for people cause it, and it can also be lonely too. Right? And so it's really important actually to have some community and FaceTime as you go through this process.

00:39:59 Chazmith: Yeah.

00:40:00 Simona: Yeah. 

00:40:01 Chazmith: So now that you're mentoring and guiding these journey groups, and really immersed in the community and supporting people who are also on the journey, maybe even earlier on or further along in their journey, we talked a lot in the beginning about how you got to this place where after the symptoms were gone, you started noticing some other things show up, you know, other areas of focus. And what are you seeing in general, in the collective types of challenges present when people are reaching that place where they're feeling a lot better physically, and they're more recovered. But then now these other challenges are presenting.

00:40:40 Simona: Yeah, so this has been, like a big topic between Dr. Cat and myself and some of the other people that helped to teach the Level Two program. And so we've really, it's kind of been on all of our minds and hearts, you know, what, when we're thinking of a Level Three program, it's like, what would that look like? And what do people really need as they come out of this? And where do people go? And number one, we see is relationships, whether it, you know, it might be with their family, their parents, their partner, their children. There's often different types of repair that need to happen.

00:41:24 Simona: Maybe they've had a 10-year chronic illness journey, and then it's like, well, how do I reintegrate into this family and, you know, take my role up again as parent or spouse or daughter or, you know, husband or whatever it might be. So that's a huge one and that's really something that no no one else really talks about. It's kind of like you're done, you go out there. And so that's something we're thinking a little bit more about in terms of creating this kind of Level Three content where people are like, emerged back into life and they need a little bit of support. 

00:42:04 Simona: So that would look like, you know, boundaries work, relationship work, you know, being able to express more of your authentic self and how you deal with kind of the fear that comes up when you do that or the conflict that, what if I show up like this and what if I'm going to lose a relationship or my job or my friends or how do I integrate this new person into old friendships? And so we really see a lot of that. And so we're trying to kind of think about what this could look like in terms of like a monthly class or like a master class where people can come and do more of a deep dive. So, yeah, relationships work. Body is a big one. It's really interesting as people come into regulation. 

00:42:54 Simona: You know, I can't, you know, I'm not a doctor and I can't say exactly why this happens, but the more regulated people become, there does seem to be a fluctuation where they're like, you know, or maybe they were only eating two foods and now they can eat all the foods. And there's like changes in the body. Right. And some people, this happened to me, I kind of, came into regulation and gained 30 pounds and was like, whoa, like what's going on with this body? And how can I be with this in a way that is really accepting and like really honoring that this is part of what regulation looks like for me. And then figuring out, you know, or just watching to see kind of, well, what happens next with this body? And so those pieces too, that I think come up a lot and people don't really talk about it.

00:43:45 Chazmith: Yeah, I think the hard part is that sometimes you start feeling better and then you go to integrate back into life and sadly, you're not really prepared for that in some degree. All of a sudden, we brought up earlier these old patterns come right back. It's really easy when you're living in a brain retraining bubble. But then when you go out into life and you're faced with work again that maybe you didn't have or challenges and things come up, it's like, "Oh my gosh, you might go back to work." And all of a sudden, like you said, you have to be really mindful of not going into workaholism and being very mindful of how you delegate your time.

00:44:25 Chazmith: And it can be so easy, unfortunately, to slide right back into the old way of being and definitely to be able to learn how to navigate entering back into life in a way that is supportive to true self and not get caught up in all those old patterns and habits and yeah, just, it's like even sometimes somebody who doesn't work for a really long time, or when you're really sick, you know, they say, all you can focus on is getting your basic needs met and feeling well. And so you're not dreaming big. And so, so many of us lose sight of like, who do I want to be when I grow up? Like, what do I even want to do on the other side? What would make me happy? What would bring me joy? That's all so many opportunities to inquire and dive into and learn and express.

00:45:15 Simona: Yeah, absolutely. It's such a big one. It's like, you know, we… work is such a great example. It's like we go back into work and we come in with the same energy. So maybe we have a hard time saying no, because we can't really embody the emotion of, like rejection or conflict. You know, we can't handle that yet. And then, so then what happens is our symptoms, you know, poke up again. And then we leave and it's like, "Oh, I'm, I have to go back and do this." I'm not recovered or, you know, or this work is bad, right?

00:45:49 Simona: And so part of what I hope to kind of inspire people with is like, you know, it's not necessarily that the work is bad or the relationship is bad or this or that, but there's just going to be a period of like learning how to bring more of yourself. And then. there's going to be a learning of what emotions are still challenging for you to embody and hold and be with. Because once we can tolerate a little bit of rejection or a little bit of uncertainty or a little bit of fear, it actually becomes much easier to show up in these situations and have a boundary or state of need. And then when we show up with boundaries and needs, the situation actually becomes more pleasant for us and we don't have to leave it.

00:46:35 Chazmith: Yeah, yeah. Speaking of like, boundaries and emotions and being able to hold space for emotions, what insights could you give for somebody who has done a lot of this work and they're kind of at this place we're talking about and they're kind of starting to become aware of this next layer, you know, of healing opportunities. And maybe they discover that there's still something that's just a really big trigger for them and the underlying. They discover that it has to do with, say, a certain emotion that maybe that is what triggers them. Some type of specific feeling just really gets them going. They're very, emotionally charged still. 

00:47:15 Chazmith: How could somebody, in a sense, heal? I don't know the right word I want to use, heal that, tone it down, you know, like discharge or tone down that triggers that they don't get so emotionally charged. Do you have any insights at all for that kind of situation where they're like, okay, I've been really self aware. And most of the things I, you know, triggers or opportunities for, it's showing me where I still need to heal, but there's this one big one, and I don't know what to do about it.

00:47:45 Simona: Yeah, that's a great question. And there's like, kind of two routes that I go with that, normally. So one is a bit of a practice and maybe we can do that. I'll speak to the other one first and then maybe I'll just like, model what that practice would look like after this. But, so there's, often when we have a certain emotion that's bringing up a big response in our body or in our nervous system, there's some kind of past associations that we have to it. So already, we're able to kind of notice like, "Oh, part of this might be a memory." And so I'm in the past with this, which is fine. It's not a judgment. It's just sometimes for me, it's just helpful because then I'm like, "Okay, maybe this present situation isn't as serious as it feels."

00:48:37 Simona: You know, when we have the glasses of the past on, it's like we view something in the present through the eyes of maybe a 10-year-old who didn't have a lot of choice in the matter. And so it feels so much bigger than it is, say, when you're 40, and you know, there's like a door and a window and like, there's all these things you could just do or you can use your voice. Say, no, thank you. So the first for me is always just like bringing myself to the present. Noticing if it reminds me of ways that I've felt in the past and if it has, I just kind of honor that. And I'm like, okay, well that just shows me this could be a bit of a past charge that's coming up here. And so once I've identified that, then I have just like a really, you know, pretty quick somatic practice that I do with emotions and I'll speak to it. And then maybe I'll just like, do a mini guided version of it for people if that would be good. 

00:49:38 Simona: Yeah. So really it's just around, first, we're just kind of naming the emotion that is potentially triggering us. And then we're just like, allowing it to have a right to exist in our body. So, so often it's like, we have it and we already think it's, like too big or too reactive or we have a judgment that we create tension. So, the first step is like we name it and we just own it. It's like this is what's happening right now in this body and just like, you know, giving yourself permission or giving that feeling the permission to just be here. And so we don't need to get into pushing it away. And then just kind of taking a few breaths and maybe finding where it is in the body. And just noticing, you know, the sensation of it without having to change it. 

00:50:31 Simona: And then I like to kind of imagine being like the witness or maybe like the space around where we find that emotion. So just, even imagining that there's like, kind of space around it, holding it, and then bringing in some love and compassion into that space to meet this big feeling. And then we just sit with that for a few breaths. And often people are like, okay, and then what? Like, and then how do I, and then that's it. And then we revisit that like with kindness and softness as we need to. And then eventually people will notice that, maybe the first time, maybe the 10th time, something is going to shift and that will integrate a little bit. 

00:51:17 Chazmith: Very cool. Yeah. 

00:51:19 Simona: Yeah. So maybe I'll just like, speak it if people want to follow along. And just, you know, can bring to mind maybe an emotion that has been a little bit challenging in the past, not like a 10 out of 10, but like a five out of a 10 situation. And so, yeah, just bringing that to mind. And then sometimes we have to bring the situation to mind just to get a bit of the ping in the body of the emotion. So if you need to do that, just bringing, the situation to mind till you notice that it creates a sensation in the body. And then once you feel that sensation, just spending a moment of just being aware of it and just giving it permission to be there exactly as it is. 

00:52:10 Simona: So just having that moment of maybe a little bit of surrender or acceptance or allowance. Maybe for some people they welcome it. And even if that seems a little odd because maybe actually, you don't want it, you can just think of this as an experiment. It's like just try this on and see how it ends up feeling. So really welcoming that and noticing where it is in your body. And just bringing a little bit of breath to it. And maybe noticing what the sensations are. Is it like, tingly or heavy? Is it warm or cool? And just kind of naming it in your own mind. You know, if another emotion comes in, sometimes like we said before, like a little bit of fear might come in. It's like just allowing that to come into and maybe giving it, like a little seat, like a little chair that it can sit in and it can be part of the process too. 

00:533:18 Simona: And then all we're going to do is just imagine a little bit of space around the area where this emotion is so that space can look like, you know, it can look like the boundary of your body or maybe the, a little bit further than the boundary of your body. It's almost as if you're kind of like holding your arms out around the area where you feel the sensation. And like you're just kind of putting your hands on either side of it and kind of holding that space for it. And just breathing into it and not needing to do anything other than just noticing that it's there and just holding that space. 

00:54:02 Simona: And then the final step of it is just to bring some gentle compassion or some love or if that's out of reach, just maybe a gentle smile to the face and imagining that smile kind of shining down in this area and just filling that whole area with love or compassion or that gentle smile. And not to change it, not to make it different, but just really to be with it and just resource it with this love and compassion. And if you're doing this practice, you can stay in this for as long as you want to, but just for time here, just taking one final breath and maybe putting your hands on the area of your body where you felt that and kind of just giving it a rub or patting it back in. And then coming back. 

00:55:07 Simona: So that's just kind of a quick version of, you know, maybe anger or fear or rejection, irritation, any of those things as they come up. And I think that was just like four minutes long. It's like, you know, I'm going to name it. I'm going to notice it. I'm going to allow it to be here and then meet it with love or compassion and just hold it and then just see what happens. 

00:55:33 Chazmith: How can people get a hold of you? Where can they find you in this world?

00:55:37 Simona: Yeah, so on Instagram, I have a Instagram associated kind of with this nervous system work and the mindfulness and the inquiry work, which is turning towards. I'm coaching for the Primal Trust Community. So that I think is primaltrust.org or look at the show notes to make sure that that's right, but it's Dr. Cathleen King's community, which is, yeah, just an amazing community. And so that's where people can find me to book mentoring, or if they want to join one of the experiential journey groups, like the somatic kind of journey groups through Regulate or the mentorship, then they can find those there as well. Oh, and then I'm also on Insight Timer. I have a bunch of meditations and some brain retraining practices there as well.

00:56:34 Chazmith: Yeah, kind of like brain retraining meets meditation.

00:56:37 Simona: Yeah, that's right. That's like my vibe. It's like moving this, like brain retraining into this mindfulness world. And we'll see how it keeps evolving. But for now, it's kind of a foot in both worlds.

00:56:49 Chazmith: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm pretty sure I probably asked you the question that I asked everybody last time, and who knows what your answer was last time and if it's going to be the same or shifted. But if you could only share one message with the world for the rest of your life, what message would you want to share? And before you answer that, because you have children, I want you to think of what would be the one message you would impart into your children, if you could only share one message with them.

00:57:20 Simona: Okay, I… like, I knew the question and I didn't really think about it before it came on. So I'm like, “Oh, I really want to think about this, but I'm going to kind of, like say a few things and then bring it down.” But you know, for me, it would be so much around trust and love. And it's like, what I've learned in this journey is, even the hardest things that happened so much is, really coming from love, like the love of our parts and our nervous system and our body and this guidance to change our lives for the better. 

00:58:00 Simona: You know, so I think it's like, very cheesy and, Simona like, you know, three or four years ago would be like, “Oh my God” like, no. But I think it's really like, you know, it's all from love. Like it really is all from love and it is all love. And yeah, that might not ring true for people right now in the middle of the journey, but I do promise that you get to a point where you look back and you just see how deeply you were being loved through the whole journey and that it's really always for us to land somewhere more aligned and better.

00:58:40 Chazmith: Awesome. Thank you. Thanks so much for coming back on again. It was so fun to catch up with you and see what you're up to in this world these days. And you brought some valuable insights to share. So I'm really excited to get to share this with people. Thank you.

00:58:57 Simona: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

00:59:01 Chazmith: Friends, that is all for today. I hope that with every episode, you find value and/or new insights to apply to your healing journey and ways to support yourself. Maybe you find a person who really resonates, for you. That is my hope, each and every episode. And if you do find value in this podcast, please remember that you can help support future episodes for as little as 99 cents per month. There is a link in the show notes called support this podcast. 

00:59:37 Chazmith: Also, if you haven't done so yet, just a friendly reminder to please consider leaving a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts so that new, future listeners can find this podcast and also learn that healing is possible for them too. Follow me on Our Power Is Within on Instagram to join me in the weekly challenges and until next time, make this week great.