How I Healed my Sensitivity to Mold (SIRS), CFS & more with Katie Nickerson, 157

00:00:00 Katie: This is, as DNRS would call, like pillar one, this is my limbic system's opinion on this being dangerous. This is not actually dangerous for me and really grounding into that and believing that.

00:00:24 Chazmith: Hi, welcome to Our Power Is Within podcast. I'm your host Chazmith and my mission for this podcast is to inspire you to take your power back and to realize that you are the healer that you've been looking for all along. I believe that we are all capable of healing in mind and body and in soul. And today's episode is sponsored by Primal Trust Academy and Community created by Dr. Cathleen King, my dear friend. Primal Trust is a membership site that helps you to find freedom from chronic illness and trauma and it is quickly becoming one of the largest worldwide online healing communities. 

00:00:59 Chazmith: This membership includes access to Regulate, which is a Level 1 comprehensive program to self-regulate the brain and nervous system, focusing on both a bottoms-up and top-down approach. Level 2 mentorship where we go deeper into the inner work of attachment and trauma healing. And the all-new level three that I am so excited about, called expansion and integration, which is all about supporting you as you emerge back into life after a period of chronic illness, burnout, and dysregulation. If you missed the episode with Simona Irwin just a few episodes ago, check it out because she is actually one of the mentors of Primal Trust and we talk about Level 3 in a little more depth. In addition to the Level 1 through 3 programs that you have access to, you will also have access to study groups, forum support, daily live classes, and so much more. So click the link in the show notes today and use the code OPIW to save 5%. 

00:02:04 Chazmith: Now, our guest today is Katie Nickerson. Katie actually has a really awesome multi-layered healing story, starting out like many of us with chronic symptoms, leading eventually into deeper layers of healing through emotions, trauma, triggers, and more. However, today we focus mostly on her experience with DNRS and brain retraining and overcoming all of her primary physical symptoms. And we also get into answering some of the questions that were submitted over Instagram. So please enjoy. 

00:02:46 Chazmith: All right, Katie, thank you so much for being here with me today. It's such a pleasure to finally meet you.

00:02:50 Katie: Yes, you too. I've heard your voice so much after listening to the podcast. It's nice to put a face to that. And yeah, just so glad I can be here. 

00:02:59 Chazmith: Yay! So I know that you have your own coaching practice. And my guess is that through, not only your own personal recovery journey, but your coaching practice experience has probably just really given you so much insights into all things healing. So I want to definitely get into some of the stuff that you've really learned along the way through coaching. And I think that's going to naturally occur. But I also really am excited to hear more about your personal story of recovering and healing as well. So I think that we're going to just kind of jump right into that if that's cool. 

00:03:36 Katie: Yeah, that sounds great. 

00:03:38 Chazmith: So just to kind of set it up for anybody who's tuned in, maybe we could just start with you briefly telling us what you were primarily focused on healing when you embarked on this self-healing journey.

00:03:52 Katie: Yes, I was primarily focused on healing from CIRS or mold toxicity, as well as, like chronic fatigue and some chemical sensitivity, a lot of gut and immune system issues, but those were the kind of the big diagnoses.

00:04:09 Chazmith: Okay. And through your experience, what tools or modalities or programs did you find were most supportive for you on this journey?

00:04:19 Katie: Yes. So I would say at the beginning of my journey, I was introduced to DNRS, the Dynamic Neural Retraining System. And that was the first like primary modality that I used to heal and resolve the mold toxicity and CIRS and the chronic fatigue and chemical sensitivities and such. And I didn't really know about any, I think leading up to that, I had done some emotional work as well around my super perfectionistic tendencies and like really learning self-compassion, how to give myself compassion and validation. So that wasn't necessarily a specific modality, but I feel like that helped set me up for success with doing the DNRS program. 

00:05:18 Katie: I've gone into and learned a lot of other modalities at this point, like the somatics, doing more like vagus nerve stimulation and somatic tools, learning how to like somatically process emotions, parts work, a lot of training and just like personal integration of parts work, internal family systems. I think, is what kind of carried me past that initial like healing physical symptoms and healing more of some of those internal emotional triggers and such. But I think that's kind of a broad, kind of overview hitting some of those main points and modalities.

00:05:57 Chazmith: Gotcha. So initially you really focused on DNRS to recover from these bigger physical ailments and you then, down the road, as like you emerged back into life, you wanted to go deeper into like next layers of healing and that's where you started resourcing other tools and modalities to support you along that continued journey.

00:06:20 Katie: Yes, exactly. 

00:06:22 Chazmith: How long did you actually do DNRS? 

00:06:24 Katie: I did it, I would say about like right at six months, but broken up into like a couple of months. And I was really motivated at first to be able to travel and go to a wedding. And so I did it, a couple of months, did the wedding and then came home and just took a little break for a few months or just gave up, I guess, for a few months. And then I restarted again and did it another couple of months. So about six months, but broken up over a little bit longer period of time.

00:06:54 Chazmith: Oh, wow. And in those first couple of months, you already experienced some relief?

00:06:59 Katie: I did. I experienced some relief from fatigue, a little relief from, like the brain fog and the fatigue. And I would say a little bit of a decrease in my sensitivity to mold, like my ability to be around it. That window tolerance increased a little bit as well. I was still reacting in different environments, but my recovery time was increasing and my tolerance for it was increasing too.

00:07:32 Chazmith: Wow. Okay. And so then you just kind of felt like, oh, you took the time off and then you realized, no, there's more healing to be done. So that's when you recommitted.

00:07:39 Katie: Yes, yes. I think I was really training hard, motivated because I wanted to go, travel across the country and be in, my good friend's wedding. So I did it and I came home and I was like, well, that was a lot of work. This takes a lot of work. And I think I just had a little, you know, a little limbic temper tantrum. I'm like, I just don't want to do this. This is so much. This is hard. I just want to rest. And then that turned into, you know, a couple of days turned into a couple of weeks, turned into a couple of months. And then there was another trip that I wanted to go on. And I was like, okay, let me, you know, let's do this again. And hired, started working with a coach to help my like, second round and dive back in. And yeah, it was life-changing.

00:08:29 Chazmith: Yeah. So you actually finished, like you just kind of stopped doing DNRS when you actually felt relief from your symptoms? Like you were just like, oh my gosh, I have no mold sensitivity anymore and you were done?

00:08:40 Katie: Are you talking about after the second time? 

00:08:44 Chazmith: Yeah. 

00:08:46 Katie: Yeah, I mean, it was still like a tool in my toolbox where I would still do rounds occasionally when I felt like I needed them. But I haven't… Yeah, after that kind of initial six months, I have not gone back to that traditional hour round of practice again after that.

00:09:04 Chazmith: Wow. That's crazy. That's like really not for everybody. I don't want anyone who's listening to think that they're doing something wrong if it takes them more than six months.

00:09:13 Katie: No, no. I wish that I had continued longer than six months. I do not recommend that. Knowing what I know now, I think it would have been very helpful to me to continue because it's not that I didn't have any symptoms. It just was, all of my, just these really debilitating symptoms were gone. Before DNRS, I really couldn't leave my house. You know, I didn't have energy. I had, you know, energy maybe to take a shower a day and that was kind of all the energy that I had. So I would say after that, like those six months, it's not like I was, I wasn't packed, a hundred percent energy. I wasn't back to a hundred percent health. I still had limitations, but it felt so, so much better. It was like, I felt night and day difference that it, to me, felt complete and [utter] freedom. I'm like, I could leave my house. I could stay in a hotel. I could do all these things I couldn't do. So I was just happy with the 50% or the 60%, whatever it was. That felt like a thousand percent to me, if that makes sense. 

00:10:22 Katie: And so certainly there, it would have benefited me to continue, but I was just so ecstatic. Like I thought I'm never going to be able to see my family again because I lived across the country, you know, or I'm never going to be able to travel to, back home to Alabama because it's chock full of mold over here in the humidity and on the Gulf coast and mold and all that. And so I just was so like living in this euphoria of, oh my gosh, this worked. My life is going to be completely different now. And that kind of propelled me. So I don't want to give the impression that over six months, it's broken up into different bits that I was back to 100%. But to me, it was good enough. And so, yeah.

00:11:09 Chazmith: Yes, I know that experience all too well when you get where you're so much better than you were that you feel good enough, but it's kind of a trick because you know deep down that it's not really quite good enough. You know there's more, but yet you've convinced yourself that you don't need to do all the commitment to the program or the training because you're like, oh, I can do these things. And it's like, almost like we start getting sidetracked. I wanted to do these things and not do the practice. But knowing deep down like, oh, man, if I actually just still, kept doing this practice, I could even get more healing, like more better.

00:11:46 Katie: Yeah. And I think looking back, I just had felt so different from everyone. So excluded is not the right word, but like outside of like normal life. And in my normal social circle, I just wanted to feel normal. I just wanted to feel like everyone else. I didn't want to have to do this healing thing. I don't want to be the one that's in their healing season again. And I just, or still like, I just was ready to be out of that. And again, I have a lot of compassion and understanding for that. I feel like I talk to, I have a lot of clients that deal with that. Like, how much longer I'm going to have to do this? When can I just go back to being normal? And yeah, like looking back, I wish that I would have continued from that place of like, this doesn't make me excluded. This is just a way to support and love myself and actually just like, set myself up to thrive in the most abundant way. Not like, oh, I have to… It switches kind of from like, I have to do this in order to… Because there's something wrong or broken with me, which I don't believe is ever true, but it's that kind of feeling of like, I have to do this and moving into that. 

00:12:57 Katie: Okay, I can make it through my day. I can survive. I can do all sorts of things that I want to do without this, but I'm going to continue to let that next layer kind of happen. There's not quite as much pain. You know, at the beginning there's so much pain that was motivating me of like, I don't want to miss out on this. There's that pain which can motivate, I don't mean like actual chronic pain, but I mean just the pain of having a chronic illness. And so when that pain lessened, I don't think that I had the right tools or support or like mindset to help me continue.

00:13:34 Chazmith: Yes, that's a really good way to put it. When we're like, kind of really in the suffering, it's a stronger motivation to show up and continue to do the work. When that suffering lessens and it's like we're at a more tolerable place, it's harder to muster that motivation. 

00:13:51 Katie: Yeah, exactly. 

00:13:53 Chazmith: Yeah. Wow. And now though today, and let's just, for frame of reference, when back, did you start DNRS? What year was this?

00:14:02 Katie: That was in 2018. 

00:14:05 Chazmith: Okay. Okay. And so now today in 2023, you feel that you have total freedom from mold? 

00:14:14 Katie: Yes, absolutely. 

00:14:16 Chazmith: When you look back in hindsight, does it make sense at all? Do you understand how or why you might have developed, your brain might have developed a sensitivity to mold or why it started to perceive mold as a threat for you?

00:14:29 Katie: Yeah, I do. It does make sense. I don't think there's a way to know 100% the moment that it happened or this or that. Yeah, it does. Looking back, like I have, as most people with that story, not everyone, but most people that are dealing with that have kind of that big exposure that their brain had that opportunity to really start developing that negative association with it. And my last semester in college, I lived in this, yeah, I had that. I had an environment where I am wondering if that was when my brain really started to have the opportunity to develop like, pick up some of those, the bad, like, that negative association with it. It was a very, like, stressful period of my life, being in my last semester of college and doing student teaching. 

00:15:25 Katie: So I went, you know, going basically, like, working full-time and just leaving that season of life and stuff going on with friends and family and then went from there right into moving and starting this new career and job that very intense, very triggering of those perfectionistic tendencies that have always been there, those high achiever, just without a lot of support really at all. And so, yeah, it makes sense why I like that because it's not usually just like that environmental trigger, right? It's like that plus my brain was already knowing my kind of personality patterns, my childhood, how I was really primed for that high achiever, perfectionistic, super self-critical tendencies combined with like the environmental triggers and stress with the emotional, additional like emotional stress and work stress. 

00:16:29 Katie: It just… yeah, I could totally understand why my nervous system and limbic system really just hit their breaking point of like, we, this is too much. The bucket, the stress bucket, the allostatic load has reached such, like, high levels that it was like, we're not, we can't do this anymore. We don't have to be for this anymore. 

00:16:52 Chazmith: Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. So, I know that I reached out to everyone on Instagram and had them submit questions for you specifically, for this interview and there was, a lot of questions around the mold. So, since we're kind of talking about the mold right now, I'm going to address some of these for people who are going to be tuned in. So, people really want to know how you did your incrementally, training around your mold sensitivity and how you were able to reduce it within the structure of brain retraining.

00:17:22 Katie: So when I started incrementally training, I really started working on some of the belief systems at the same time, of like, starting to help my brain understand and really reinforce that this is a natural substance that occurs in the environment. And it's not dangerous and harmful. And I had trained myself, I was in the… following a protocol that called for, like pretty strict avoidance where I was not really leaving my house very much. And so I had a lot of fear around it. So it's just starting with some of those, identifying those beliefs around it being negative and then working on changing that. And so I started with finding pictures of it online and looking at it and admiring it as if it were like a piece of artwork and just like, wow, look at all those different colors and the different shapes and I looked at it, pictures of it in nature, and I learned a little bit about it, like how it all works and they're like in the colonies and such and in small ways, like, in like really small doses as felt tolerable to me. 

00:18:39 Katie: So it's taking away, doing things to really take away the fear of it, starting to call it silly things, little moldy [poop], and just making some more playful things around it. But I think it really just starts with that. This is, as DNRS would call pillar one, this is my limbic system's opinion on this being dangerous. This is not actually dangerous for me, and really grounding into that and believing that. And then I would envision, use visualizations around it. A lot of going and visualizing myself walking around places in my town that I had previously had reactions to. So like, Target was a big one for me. Every time I went to Target in the city I was in, I would react. And so did a lot of visualizations around that, walking around and shopping and feeling just totally relaxed in there. And when that no longer felt super triggering, because at the beginning of this, I would like, visualize that and start having reactions just during my visualization. 

00:19:53 Katie: And so that was actually really helpful, because it really reaffirms that, oh, this is my brain's perception of it. This is the fear. I'm in my safe home. I'm not even at the store. So that kind of fueled some of that belief for me. And then I would start drive up to Target and notice what thoughts, what sensations were happening in my body, what thoughts were coming up, being aware of that, and doing my practice, really catching those thoughts, replacing them, and then going back another day and walking in, turning around, walking out, going home, doing around, and then like kind of slowly building up from there. And yeah, eventually, it just kind of jumped off the cliff, which I don't necessarily recommend either. But it also, yeah, shows kind of the power of that belief, too.

00:20:51 Chazmith: To jump off the cliff, I think you have to be so incredibly firm in the belief around it. If you have any wavering belief at all, say if it was a food sensitivity, if there's any wavering thought or belief anywhere in your brain that still is concerned or fearful of that food or that mold or that chemical, and then you just dive deep, that could present a problem. But if you are so absolutely firm in your belief that it's not a threat anymore, I think that's where you can end up having success with that approach.

00:21:24 Katie: Absolutely. And I would add to that, which kind of goes along in the same vein of that of, like that really strength of belief, but also the ability to have that like attitude of indifference towards systems.

00:21:39 Chazmith: Yes. Noticing that if they come up, it doesn't mean something's wrong.

00:21:44 Katie: Exactly. When I say, jump off the cliff, it's not that I didn't have any other symptoms. It's not that I didn't react to mold. After that, I would feel myself start to, but I was able to stay in that attitude of indifference. I was able to stay in that, like, that's okay. This does not mean anything negative about my body. It doesn't mean I'm unsafe. My conscious mind can override this. This is not going to last long, this is not dangerous. I really felt really confident in that. And I think that there's different ways to develop that, and that can take some practice. And I have so much compassion for people that are like, how? How do I be indifferent towards these really scary symptoms? But it is, one of the things that I see in clients that shifts symptoms the most is, leaning into that attitude of indifference, which I'm using. I think this is Alan Gordon's language here, but yeah, just that curiosity about symptoms.

00:22:47 Chazmith: Yeah. No, it's so true because I feel like too, if you had the symptom kind of show up in your body, the sensations when you're doing a visualization, I feel like that can help with indifference too because you're like, well, wait, like I'm not actually exposed to anything right now and I'm still getting the symptom. So it's affirming to your body that it's actually like, not totally unsafe to be around. It's no more unsafe to be around that perceived threat because my body can react without it anyway. So it's just showing the power of the mind essentially.

00:23:18 Katie: Yes. Absolutely. 

00:23:20 Chazmith: So this is interesting. So there was mold in a Target? 

00:23:24 Katie: Who knows. I don't know. 

00:23:25 Chazmith: Or just your body reacted to it. 

00:23:27 Katie: I don't know. 

00:23:27 Chazmith: But you also had some chemical sensitivities. So were you suscepting yourself to the chemical sensitivities in Target as well? Could that have also been a thing?

00:23:36 Katie: Yeah. That could have been it. That could have been chemicals as well.

00:23:40 Chazmith: So it's interesting because ultimately you don't even really know if there was mold in Target. You just know your body was, reacting to it. And yet, without even knowing if there was truly mold or not, you were still able to use Target as a means to incrementally train your brain's capacity to tolerate mold.

00:23:56 Katie: Yes, yes, absolutely. 

00:23:57 Chazmith: So cool. 

00:23:58 Katie: In addition to Target, there were other places that I had tested that I did know had mold, like know the score, the Ermi score, like knew that there was mold in, and I know that I've had reactions to in the past as well that I now am able to be in without any problem.

00:24:14 Chazmith: Okay. Yeah, because you are living in the south now again where there's, you know, where we just know that mold is pretty predominant.

00:24:22 Katie: Yes. Yep. I moved back to Alabama after, yeah, after DNRs.

00:24:28 Chazmith: So knowing what you know now and being at the place you're in now, would you still continue to test a house for mold or test a place for mold if you were going to be living in it?

00:24:38 Katie: I don't test for mold anymore. No, I've moved several times and have not tested any places since I did DNRS. I think that this is a nuanced, I mean, I think that I, you know, as I was looking for the last place that I lived, I poured a few places that had like visible mold, not just like a little bit in the shower, but like had a good bit of visible mold and water damage. And I wouldn't choose to live there, but I don't think that's healthy. That's not necessarily ideal for anyone really, but I don't think that it's, I don't test places anymore. But I think for people that are like just starting the journey, it can be, again, it's nuanced and personalized and it can be okay to like, if that helps that person feel safe, that they like can feel safe in there, they want to find something after so much trauma around that's like, if there's so much trauma around mold and what that's done, I don't think there's a way I think you can do that and just have that compassion for yourself of like, I have a safe, a safe, I'm saying that in quotation marks, but like a place where you feel safe. And if testing does that, then I can see that that, be beneficial for that person. And also that doesn't mean that they'll need to continue testing every, yeah, for every place that they live.

00:26:06 Chazmith: Yeah. That makes sense. Also, on a side note, I probably wouldn't go into a rental that had visibility of water damage and presence of mold just because it says something about how they care for their property in general. 

00:26:18 Katie: Exactly. Exactly. 

00:26:19 Chazmith: But yeah, I mean, I also live in Florida, so it's pretty much, it's everywhere. 

00:26:23 Katie: Yes. 

00:26:25 Chazmith: So I'm like, well, I'm not going to go digging for problems.

00:26:28 Katie: Yeah. And it's interesting. Yeah. I grew up on the Gulf coast and we have hurricanes every year, multiple. And so the town I lived in, we were just used to having flooding and, you know, businesses being shut down every year because of water damage. So like, I know I grew up around it. So, so much of it. And it was like my body, yeah, I was able to be around it for so many years before I started having issues, but. And I think that was helpful for me to like, when working around the fear of it and rewiring my belief is like thinking about, there's so many people that are able to live in these communities and different places all over the world that are humid and are okay, don't have this fear.

00:27:15 Chazmith: Yeah, I mean, there's places in other countries where it's so humid and hot, and they don't even have air conditioning or anything to control the moisture levels in their homes. And yeah, I always look for that, too, to remind my brain. Because, you know, our brains want to go to like, let's go to the worst possible outcome. And it's like, constantly got to remind it. Like for me, one thing I used to have a really hard time with was heat. I'm still actually working through that to some degree. I'm not where I would love to be eventually. I remember like I'll be out on a bike ride and it starts to feel exceptionally hot to me. I just remind myself, like, Great. Look, this is okay. People literally work. I look at construction workers. I'm like, they work in this all day long. I'm on a 20-minute bike ride. I can do this. There's people all day in this. I can do this. 

00:28:05 Katie: Yes. 

00:28:06 Chazmith: So just affirming that by looking around for the evidence that's all around us all the time.

00:28:11 Katie: Yeah. And yeah, I would use that as well. Walking around the stores or walking or in this building or whatever and look around and be like, see? Look at all these people. They can be here as well. Then the brain can go to, well, you're special because you have this age-old aging and this and that. It's like everyone has stress in their life. No one's nervous system is super regular. Most, no, I shouldn't say everyone, but most people are dealing with some dysregulation or some challenges or such. So it's not like, well, all of these people have the normal perfect bodies and I don't, that just isn't accurate. 

00:28:51 Chazmith: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so we're going to kind of continue on your story and your journey here. But I'm really curious, you made some really big life shifts shortly after you did your, you know, kind of completed your main focus with DNRS. You did your, you know, committed like six months broken up. And then I know that you made some huge life shifts, like you moved back to Alabama, across the country, and there were some other things that you changed as well. What prompted those shifts? Do you feel like DNRS helping you kind of get into your truth helped you to realign with what was true for you to prompt you to like make these big shifts or was it something else? 

00:29:33 Katie: That's a good question. I think that it was a combination of some things, but I think it definitely starts with DNRS. And really coming back, you know, what DNRS is doing, what any brain retraining is doing is calming that amygdala, calming the limbic system so it's not activating that stress response, when it doesn't need to be, right, which is then allowing the nervous systems kind of like home base or home state to move from a chronically dysregulated state, like of living in that sympathetic or dorsal state back into that ventral vagal state to where we are meant to be.

00:30:17 Katie: And my point in saying this is it allows that your nervous system to kind of find its homeostasis again in that rest and digest state where I think you have naturally in that state, you have access to your intuition and your creativity and your true self and your true desires. And I think that that does then cause or allow for people to maybe see their life through a more, maybe just a different lens of like what is working, what is not, what coping strategies that were really necessary and really helpful before are no longer needed. And I think for me personally, it caused or just allowed me access to or just ability. I feel like after DNRS, I started to trust myself, started to practice trusting myself again, and not necessarily just going along with what everyone in the culture around me was saying. I was able to trust, better discern, and in tune just with what I really wanted. 

00:31:44 Katie: And part of that was painful in the way of like, it's, I think my avoidance of conflict was a strategy that was helpful for me at time. But as I healed my brain, my capacity for conflict increased. And not that I was looking for conflict, but it just was this thing where I was like, no, I don't want to be a part of that anymore. No, this isn't working for me, this relationship. I'm not going to participate in this culture or this way. So it really created some stress, some relational stress, emotional stress, some questions that I was starting to just question the religious environment, this particular religious environment I was in. And I think too, there is a piece of a more spiritual, I would call it like a spiritual component of like, sometimes when you're not living in alignment or in tunement with what is meant for your highest good and purpose, I think sometimes some people call it a rock bottom or getting pushed out of the nest where whether it's God or the universe, just kind of being like, nope, here we go. We're not doing this anymore. 

00:32:59 Katie: And I had some of those, had some things that felt similar to that too, where it was like, Okay, you're trying to make this thing work over here, and it's time to go. It's time to move back. It's time to launch into this and do that. I feel like that's kind of vague, but I also feel like that's some of the energetics of what was going on behind the scenes of launching that caused some of these bigger life changes.

00:33:28 Chazmith: Well, kudos to you for actually taking action. 

00:33:32 Katie: Yes, yes. Sometimes we kind of go back to that pain is motivating. When there's enough pain, you're like, okay, I'm willing to make this big shift and change. And to be fair, I was living in California and I moved from Alabama to California because of the mold piece. And I was living in this part of Northern California that was drier, it was a drier climate. And I had some friends and family member there. So I went there because of the mold and when that, resolved, that was kind of always my intention was to be able to move back. That was really always in the back of my mind of like, I want to come back but…

00:34:11 Chazmith: That makes sense. Yeah. And I imagine though that through that process of change, it probably did you experience any kind of, like, shake up to your nervous system again? Like here you were spending all these months like, kind of regulating and then now you make these big changes. Did you encounter any kind of like, dysregulation or just, yeah, any heavy feelings that you needed to then work towards, work through?

00:34:38 Katie: Yes, I did. And that kind of launched this looking for other resources and another round of healing and using my tools, using DNRS and rounds and such. I didn't, my, the sensitivity to mold and chemicals and foods, which I didn't mention that previously, but that was, you know, histamines, the mast cell activation, all that. None of that came back. I've never experienced any of those symptoms again. So I just want to be really clear that it wasn't that, yeah, none of that ever came back. There have been moments when I'm, there have been, I would say, moments where I've experienced some of those symptoms, but I'm able, that like lasts for maybe a couple of seconds. And then I'm able to kind of catch that and redirect my brain. But I did experience some, yeah, dysregulation, just like emotional, being kind of flooded emotionally. 

00:35:32 Katie: Moving back to Alabama kind of prompted, gave me the opportunity to look at some of my childhood, just like patterns, some unprocessed trauma and pain from like kind of being back in my hometown and back around family members that I'd been distanced from for a long time and said that brings with it, obviously, like dysregulations and some symptoms of that, which for me looked like some fatigue again, or just like overwhelm some of that like dorsal state of just wanting to kind of curl up and not doing anything. And it wasn't anywhere as severe as it was before. Like I was still living a normal life and working and being social. And so it wasn't debilitating, but again, it was definitely, experienced some dysregulation pretty regularly for a short, for a couple of months.

00:36:26 Chazmith: When you have, like, these heavy emotions come up, do you, you know, you said you explored some new tools, like, it caused you to, like, look for other ways to support yourself as well as use, like, your DNRS tool kit, but did you, how did you manage your emotions when heavy emotions did rise to the surface? Did you just redirect them and do a round or did you learn how to really process and be with them in a healthy way and also utilize your brain re-training in a different capacity?

00:37:01 Katie: Yes, I did use some like my DNRS rounds to kind of stabilize, to help kind of like, stabilize some of that dysregulation. But what I find is that, can be a really helpful tool to, like help bring you back down to baseline, but it isn't going to remove those triggers. It isn't necessarily going to prevent it from happening again. When I'm talking about like, specific emotional, like, that there's trauma and those beliefs that patterns I found for me. And so that led me to working with a therapist that I hadn't heard of this before, but in our sessions found she started using some more somatic-based therapy and internal family system and parts work. And that I think it was really the most helpful modality or tool for that season of my healing of learning. You know, I think my body was such an unsafe place. And so obviously did DNRS enough to be able to like re-enter society and be around mold and such, but I didn't, 

00:38:17 Katie: I stopped short of becoming really embodied and feeling safe in my body again. And I needed someone to help me feel safety around that. And so, and a lot of that was around emotions because I just had never, I just didn't know how to feel emotions or process. I knew how to think, them and intellectualize them, but I didn't know, actually, how to feel and process them. And so working with a therapist who does IFS was helpful because it helped you know, she would ask me questions of, like, “What part of you is feeling that way?”, and “Where do you feel that in your body?” And I'm like, “What are you talking about?” But learning for me how to somatically feel, recognize that emotions were sensations in my body and how to interrupt, I could still use kind of that same top-down approach of like interrupting the story and really ruminating on things and turning… and that was really helpful for me, 

00:39:20 Katie: Dean on us of learning and like, “Okay, I'm really in this trauma loop, and I'm really looping on this.” I can't believe he said that to me, and he is this, you know, like looping on a specific story, But interrupting that and being able to, “What emotion, just that?” “What emotion am I feeling?” Where, “Oh, I'm feeling anger or sadness”, or,  “I feel really… misunderstood”, or that and then being able to find, to just observe where that was in my body and just practice like somatic tracking with that of being with that emotion and letting that emotion be what it is and then able to, like release that and come back into that kind of regulation I found really helpful. And that really is kind of like a mix of that Part's Work Theory and some somatic tracking. But I needed that somatic piece to be able to kind of really, we talked about attitude of indifference, but learning that first that those physical sensations like around mold and chemicals and fatigue and all of that are safe, but then also next learning, okay, these emotions are safe for me to feel these emotions. They're just sensations and they're not bad or wrong. They just are.

00:40:45 Chazmith: Yeah, so you use the DNRS and the rounds as a way to interrupt the loops, the stories. But then once you could interrupt and break the pattern of the story, then you could actually really sit with what was really there, which is the motion.

00:41:01 Katie: Yeah. I would say I used the like. Not necessarily the rounds, but just the DNRS. thought process of interrupting like the pops, like the trauma loops, that kind of things. And I still used rounds to kind of ground into positive emotion sensation to get some of that like dose neurochemistry going and to continue to like widen my window of tolerance, continue to decrease that sensitivity of my amygdala to kind of continue to train that reticular, because every time we do those, those visualizations, you're training that reticular activating system to look, to believe, and to look for positive and good things, which then just helps us be more grateful and curious and open and all of those things. So I would, yeah, use that just to continue working on just supporting my limbic system.

00:42:00 Chazmith: Yeah, that makes sense. That's a really great way to approach it. Pattern interrupts because recognizing that the story and the actual emotion aren't one and the same. There's a story that we can get stuck in that sometimes makes the emotion feel even bigger than it maybe actually has to be. That's awesome. So what were, throughout this whole journey, some of the biggest struggles that you encountered and how did you overcome them?

00:42:30 Katie: That's a good question. Some of the biggest struggles. I think, do we want to go into kind of during the DNRS when I was like retraining initially or afterwards or just overall?

00:42:45 Chazmith: Anywhere you want to be. Like I do know that you and I kind of offline talked about you had a really big ebb at one point and you overcame that and it was like a really positive experience through going through that. Maybe you could talk about that.

00:42:59 Katie: Yeah, yeah, sure. I talked about kind of jumping off the cliff with, like the mold sensitivity. And again, of course, there was plenty of work that went into that incremental training beforehand, but I was really doing this training because I wanted to go on this trip with my friends to Disney World. in Florida, which was across the country because my friends were, these are friends, old friends from Alabama, and they were all going and I really wanted to go, but that was a cross-country flight. And then obviously staying in a hotel. And a couple of days before the trip, I had one of the biggest ebbs I've ever had. I think I went into a building, I can't remember a friend's house for a short period of time and had a reaction and then was really kind of like, in bed for like three days just really could, was not coming out of it and I just it's really low and like, “Oh, this isn't gonna work”, and, “Why did I think this was going, this could work? ‘See, I'm still reacting.” 

00:44:05 Katie: And I ended up having this session with my coach at the time. And I don't, I honestly, I'm not really sure what it was, or I don't think it was anything specific that she said, but it was just, the gist of it was, this is not dangerous, too. You can go anywhere you want. and be safe. This is okay and something in me just decided to believe her. I was like, “Okay, I believe it.” I'm just decided to believe her. And by the end of this session, a lot of my symptoms had lifted. And I was like, “Wow, this is wild” because they haven't gotten better over three days. And I have one conversation where I'm feeling some hope and belief and, majority of these symptoms are gone. So I jumped off the cliff and ended up going on the trip and had an amazing. 

00:44:57 Katie: And I was at Disney World, so in South Florida, and all these rides and hotels and restaurants and all these things that were older. And of course, I knew I had mold. And there were times when my brain started to go down those paths of worrying about it, and then starting to feel some of those symptoms. And I just really lean into that, like, “No, this is okay. These sensations, this is so silly.” My limbic system, this is not dangerous to me. I'm safe. I don't need to leave. It worked. I was able to be there and sure had some symptoms here and there, but I also like, walked 12 miles in one day. Whereas previously I was walking, my doctor was like, wanting me to walk a max of five minutes a day. And I went from that to 12 miles in a day and was eating, it was also the food and wine festival. 

00:45:51 Katie: So I was eating all of the foods from the vendors and drinking all of the drinks and you know, up at 6 am and getting back to the room at 12 because I was with this group of like crazy Disney people that are just those people that are want to be do all of the things and I think it was really profound and transformative to me to be like, wow, my body can do this. And I do think like, obviously, I had a friend, my friends were there with me, and I had really taught them all about this. I had a note on my phone where I had all of my key, I would call them anchors, all these truths, these reminders. And I was like, “Here's where the note is. If I start to dip or take my phone and read this to me”, or they would prompt me and be like, “Katie, do you think we should do a round right now?” And then we would do rounds together out loud, standing in line. And there was obviously with Disney, there was so much of just that natural, like elevated emotion and trying new things and being in new environments. And it was that moment where I was like, “I did it. this worked my whole life.” 

00:47:11 Katie: It wasn't perfect, and I worked really hard at it. It wasn't just like I got on the plane and went to Disney and had the best time, which I find with my client, a lot of them expect that. They're like, I did these visualizations, and now I'm going on the trip or doing the thing. And then I went, and I had symptoms, and it was awful. But you still have to work. You still have to do the work while you're in these initial corrective experiences for your brain. So I had an amazing time and I was obviously working at it while I was there, like really diligent about my thoughts and still had, my brain would still, I'd walk into a ride, one of like, the old, like the Peter Pan ride that's been there for a million years. And my brain's like, “Oh, this is a really old building. How long are we going to be in here?” You know, just that still happens and that's okay. And I was able to be aware of that and catch it and redirect it. 

00:48:05 Katie: The interesting part of that story though is I, like I said, was like, “Wow, it worked. My whole life is going to be different now. I'm free”. And I hadn't been home to Alabama in a few years because of mold, obvious reasons. And so I canceled my flight back to California and I flew the next day to Alabama. Instead, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I can go home. I can see my friends. I was so excited”. And my mom was really nervous like, “Are you sure you can do this?” She's been along this whole process. I mean, I'm like, “Yes, I got it. This is awesome. I've conquered it.” And I got there and flew to Alabama, spent the night. My first night, woke up the next morning, and I was so sick. 

00:48:52 Katie: All of my mold symptoms were back with a vengeance. And I was like, “What? What is going on? Like, this is awful.” And it went on for a couple of days where I just had all of the symptoms come back and so then had a lot of hopelessness and frustration, understandably, and then went into like, well, maybe in Florida, just the places I was in there, even though it's South Florida, and even though the buildings are old, maybe there just wasn't any mold there. And that's why I felt okay. Just crazy thinking of like, “Oh, well, that was just a flu. This isn't going to work.” So yeah, I had my pity party for a couple of days. And totally understand that, and then decided to check into an Airbnb that… because I was staying at, like a family home that I had previously gotten sick at, and I knew the score, the mold score there. So even though I really felt really confident going in, I got there and my brain was still like, “Nope, we know this place. We know it's not safe”. 

00:50:01 Katie: Checked into an Airbnb. Of course, I didn't know the mold score, but it looked new. It looked newer. And so my brain, I think, just believed it was safe. And so I went there and let my body just kind of decompress and relax. and come back into safety and it did. I didn't like go fully recover, but I felt a little bit more safe. And then from there, I went, I did some incremental training around my family home. And the first day I went to that house and stayed for an hour and like, distracted myself while I was there and kept my mood kind of elevated and then went back to the Airbnb and did my rounds and just kind of relaxed and let myself feel safe. And then the next day, you know, and I was,  “Okay”. The next day, I went back for a couple of hours. Like, “Okay, see, brain, if we do an hour, we can do a couple hours”. And stayed for a couple hours, left, did my rounds, and was fine. Yeah. And the next day, went back and stayed all day and was fine. And when I say fine, I mean, I'm still having like, fear pop up. I'm still having some of those old thoughts pop up, but I was able to interrupt that and not get overwhelmed by it. So yeah, after that, eventually moved back into that family house and haven't had any issues with mold since.

00:51:25 Chazmith: It just seems like even though you only committed to DNRS for like six months, you were super, super, super committed to doing the training, the incremental training, and really teaching that safety around the triggers. 

00:51:37 Katie: Yes. Yes. 

00:51:39 Chazmith: I think that's huge.

00:51:41 Katie: All in with it. 

00:51:42 Chazmith: Yeah. 

00:51:43 Katie: And I was still doing some, like mold treatments while I was doing DNRS and like, slowly as it felt natural to me kind of decreased that. But eventually kind of by that point was kind of like all in and like my body can handle this. This is not unsafe for me. I'm okay to be around this.

00:52:06 Chazmith: Just looking at the time here, I want to ask a couple more questions, but it seems like naturally the focal point really has been your retraining experience. And I think that's okay because I know there's so many people all the time that I still get questions on like Instagram and stuff like that, that really they have these kinds of questions around the retraining and incremental training and the specific sensitivities. So I'm thinking I'm going to stick with this theme for the last couple of questions here. And based on not only your personal experience of retraining and going through what you've gone through but also being a coach now for several years and helping other people through their journeys, What are some of the patterns that you see that hinder progress in brain retraining? Because we're talking about what's really good, like, okay, you went all in and really committed to the incremental training, but what could hinder it in your experience?

00:52:56 Katie: Yeah, that's a great question. One pattern I see often that hinders progress is perfectionism in brain retraining, and that could look like know, people just wanting to make sure, like, they'll come with questions like, but I did it this, I said this word instead of that word, or I did 57 minutes instead of 60 minutes. Is that okay? You know, that's an exaggeration, but really want, or I just, didn't feel like I got to that elevated place in my round, and so does that count, and just, and that's like perfectionism within the brain retraining, but just you obviously can have that in other areas as well, but that the way I see perfectionism, I see it as a, through the lens of like that is a protective part, that that is a coping strategy that is trying to be, safe that is trying to make sure that we're doing it right so that we heal. Because if we don't do it right, then we're not gonna heal. And then we're going to continue feeling these symptoms and this pain. And so obviously, it makes perfect sense. 

00:54:13 Katie: But unfortunately, it does still keep that nervous system in that state of hypervigilance and in that, yeah, that dysregulated state where your brain, it sends those messages of danger to your brain instead of those messages of safety. And so learning how to, yeah, we want to use the tools correctly, but it's more important not, it's the how we do it is, or how we approach it is more important than the specifics of what we're doing. It's still important, but I don't know if that makes sense. But we want to do the best that we can, but not let the perfectionism be the one driving the retraining bus. 

00:55:05 Katie: Yeah, some other ones that I see commonly is the rushing or urgency pattern of like, how much longer is this going to take? And how long do I have to do this? And when is this going to end? And sometimes, I mean, sometimes it's just the rush, like the literal rushing of moving quickly throughout your day or rushing around and trying to get all a million things done and that kind of like, go, go, go. mentality as well. But that rushing and that urgency the brain perceives as danger, primally, right? It's like, “Oh, we got to hurry. There must be something that we're running. away from.” And again, it's like I think that all of these patterns, they have a good intention and that's kind of where the parts work, the IFS comes in. I see these as protective parts now of that, intention of that trying to, of course, you want this season of pain to be over. Of course, you don't want to feel these uncomfortable symptoms and sensations anymore. But the like, when is this going to be over? And that urgency of the, have to this, has to change right now. That even as you're saying, like, you can just like, your body is, my body is tensing saying that and that the limbic system understands, doesn't understand words, it understands posture, and emotion and sensation. And so it really just sends those again, messages of danger instead of safety. Pressure– 

00:56:47 Chazmith: So it's kind of like keeping you stuck, right? It's keeping you stuck. 

00:56:51 Katie: Yeah. 

00:56:52 Chazmith: It's like you're doing all this brain retraining, but if you're still like approaching life and things through this lens of perfection or rushing or feeling the pressure, then you're still, it's counterproductive because you're doing all this work to like bring messages of safety, but then you're doing all these coping mechanisms that continue to send a message of danger. So it's like this.

00:57:14 Katie: Yeah. And I think it's hard to like not bring any of those to the table. Right. And that's because that's how everybody has those protective parts. And that's okay. I mean, again, we don't have to be perfect in that, but we do want to be aware of that. And we do want to be where am I putting pressure on this? That's where that kind of like, attitude of indifference towards symptoms comes along. If we're doing it just to put pressure of like, this has, the symptom has to change now or I need this to work now. In some way, some of that, like the pressure of a deadline or I want to be able to go to this event or this trip can be motivating and that can be helpful. But if that pressure is kind of running the show or driving the bus, that can keep us just stuck in that activated survival state that we're really trying. That's the whole point of this is to convince the brain that it's safe to come out of that protective state.

00:58:10 Chazmith: Yeah. Yeah. I really like, I don't remember who came up with the term, but like where you say, “Oh, I'm doing it.” When you notice, like “Oh, I'm doing this thing right now” rather than like I am, you know, rather than “I'm feeling pressure, I'm doing pressure.”

00:58:23 Katie: Yes. 

00:58:24 Chazmith: You can do a train around that. Like that's where you can now use your tool to help you with the thing that's sending the message of danger. So, oh, noticing just being aware. “Oh, I'm actually doing, pressure right now.” “Oh, I'm noticing, I'm doing… rushing right now.” “Oh, I'm noticing I'm doing perfection.” And then going into, around to break that pattern, like to do a pattern interrupt around that can be really powerful. 

00:58:47 Katie: Yes, absolutely. 

00:58:49 Chazmith: So we don't only have to do it around symptoms.

00:58:51 Katie: Yeah, yeah. And really, we're never doing it around symptoms because we're not trying to stop symptoms. We can't stop symptoms, but we're really wanting to interrupt those patterns, the thoughts, those neural pathways that are causing those symptoms and such. But yeah, I really like that. like I'm doing perfectionism or I'm doing urgency because A, you're like giving it a name, you're like bringing that awareness and then it creates a little separation between you and that part and that helps give some un-blending, I would say, between you and that protective part. Because that's not really your true core self or your higher self, whatever the capital S self in IFS you want to call it. Like it's bringing some separation. so that you can then, yeah, break that pattern. 

00:59:43 Katie: And I would say too, like it is just also a good just indicator of like, “Oh, I'm feeling, my system is feeling in need of like, a little fear or in need of support.” So when I'm doing perfectionism still, it's like, “Oh, I'm just aware that there's parts of me that need that reassurance that I'm going to be with you no matter what, that whether I succeed at this or don't, or I show up in this way or don't, I'm still going to love and accept myself.” So it can be a, yeah, and you can do the round to be… That can be part of… around, of bringing those parts, those protective parts, those younger parts of us to be able to get what they need to get that need met.

01:00:26 Chazmith: Yeah. Now, okay, I have one more question from a listener who submitted it on Instagram. And I think this will be really great because maybe we're like, “Okay, I'm going to start becoming more aware.” And then somebody is listening like, “Oh my God, but I do those things all day long, I can't do a full 15-minute round. you know, a hundred times a day.” So do you have any advice for somebody where they could have, like a simple, quick way to do a pattern interrupt or retrain around some of these thoughts and or behaviors that we end up doing that we want to break away from, essentially? Yeah. So we're not like having to do, full 15 minutes a hundred times a day, but like quick interrupts or quick types of retraining.

01:01:16 Katie: Yes. Yeah, definitely. I would say two, maybe two or three different options there. One, I think, yeah, interrupting it, and then you can go into like a quick mini visualization of like a safe place, like of what is that? What is the opposite? What is that part really trying to get? Is it peace? Is it, belonging? Is it safety? And have kind of like a go-to little mini visualization that you can do for 30 seconds and not 15 minutes? I also really like, in that moment, interrupting that, naming it. and doing a quick like grounding exercise or a somatic exercise to help resource your nervous system to get some of those messages of safety to help your true self that or prefrontal cortex kind of come back online. 

01:02:15 Katie: And there's so many different ones, but sometimes it is just as simple as, like, noticing, again taking like, my focus away from the story. That part is worrying about and coming back to, like, okay, can I feel my bottom in the chair? Can I feel my feet on the ground and just grounding into that, doing a containment hug, doing the, shaking out my arms and legs if I'm doing anxiety. Gosh, I have so many, but I would say going into a really modified round of just doing a 30-second visualization of a happy place or going to like a somatic tool that's going to help, send counter some of that, protective patterns and going to be sending kind of those messages of safety. 

01:03:13 Chazmith: Perfect. Okay, I'm going to ask you one more question, a question that you know what it is because you've listened to my podcast before and I ask everybody, one message for the world if you could only share one message for the rest of your life.

01:03:25 Katie: I would say this message is not unique. It's not my unique message, but something that I've learned in studying the IFS model, the Dick Schwartz work on parts work of what's been most transformative for me and what I would hope everybody knew and believed and understood is there are no bad parts. Like we've been talking about, these perfectionism and urgency, all of those protective parts that can hinder progress, but there are no bad parts. They all are there to serve to help get your needs met in the best way that they know how. And our nervous system and our limbic system are not out trying to get us and ruin our lives and create these symptoms. It's all designed to help keep us safe. And so no matter what pattern you have, no matter what emotion or symptom, it's all okay. It always makes sense. You always make sense. and each person at their core has access to their… I believe everyone is born with and always has access to their true self, their core self that is good. and is curious and creative and inventive and smart, like that's always, I think that's available to everyone at all times. And sometimes these protective parts jump in to really protect us and help, that you lose connection to that, but it's always there and we always have access to it.

01:05:07 Chazmith: I love it. Thank you. How can people connect with you? 

1:05:11 Katie: Yeah, the best way to connect with me is on Instagram and I am @katienickersonhealth on there. So I, um, yeah, through email, my email, I think is on there as well, but my Instagram has all links to signing up for like a free chat. If someone's interested in coaching or information on my courses or masterclasses that I'm doing.

01:05:38 Chazmith: Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me and being here and sharing everything that you've shared with us today. I feel like we went into some really good insights that could be really supportive for somebody out there who's listening, so I appreciate you.

01:05:51 Katie: Great. Yeah, I've loved it. Thanks for having me.

01:05:59 Chazmith: Friends, that is a wrap for today. As always, I hope that today was resourceful and insightful for you. Katie has had some great incremental training resources and maybe you don't have an issue specifically with mold, like the example she gave, but you can fill in the blank with food, chemicals, or anything else that you've experienced sensitivities with and get some ideas on the incremental training piece, which I know is always a big question. Make sure to give her a follow on Instagram and connect with her today, links in the show notes. And if you find value in this podcast, please consider supporting future episodes for as little as 99 cents per month by clicking the link support this podcast in the show notes as well. All right, y'all until next time make this week great.