114: How I Healed POTS, CFS, Migraine, Vestibular Disorders, Anxiety, Agoraphobia, Panic Disorder, PTSD, IBS, long covid, & more with Vanessa Azelis

[00:00:00] Chazmith: Welcome to Our Power is within a weekly podcast to inspire you to take your power back to realize that you're the healer that you've been looking for. All along, we are capable of healing in mind, in body and Soul. And I'm your host, Chazmith. Today's episode is sponsored by Autoimmune Resolution, a six month program to help you break the cycle of fear and stop symptoms in their tracks with the power of GNM or German New medicine, sometimes referred to as GHK or Germanic Healing knowledge. 

Learning about GNM and understanding our biological reason for symptoms and what they actually mean has literally been a game changer for me and my life, and my relationship with symptoms and what these symptoms mean about me. 

To learn more about the founder of Autoimmune Resolution, check out episode 76 in the podcast with Katherine House and visit www.autoimmuneresolution.com to learn more now.

[00:01:15] Chazmith: I hope that you are all finding new and creative fun ways to show yourself love this month as we continue in the five Love Language monthly challenge. We are using the five love languages: words of affirmation, gifts, touch, quality time, and acts of service to love ourselves.

And. Yeah, I hope you are exploring and playing and having fun with this throughout the month and make sure that you are practicing doing the challenges now, because in the new year I have some really fun challenge ideas that will also be including prizes. So opportunities to win prizes for participation.

So practice, and you'll learn more about that in the new year. In the meantime, just keep loving on you. I wanted to take a pause and take a moment to welcome anyone who might be a new listener to the podcast. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. I really do hope that you find value in tuning in today.

If you have any specific questions or you are looking for any specific topics or possibly any specific symptoms that other people have healed, please feel free to reach out to me anytime and I can steer you in the right direction and let you know which episodes might ha have some value for you.

I know there's a lot out there to sift through. Also if there is anybody out there who is doing DNRS and And is at a place where it is still outside of their window of tolerance to hear any form of symptom talk. You can also reach out to me and I would be glad to send you a list of DNRS friendly episodes.

Okay. And to be really honest, a lot in the very beginning of the podcast, like probably the first big chunk of testimonials are all DNRS friendly. So you would be safe there. Okay, now that I got that out of the way, also wanted to say for everybody who's been a long time listener, thank you so much for your continued support.

Thank you for continuing to leave positive reviews and feedback. Thank you for sharing this podcast with friends and family and your dedication. Thank you for those of you who have left monetary donations for future episodes. I just really appreciate each and every one of you and your continued dedication.

Anybody out there who might have a story to share, a testimonial, something that you've learned along the way in your journey that you find so supportive that you want the world to know about. If so, let's connect, how to get ahold of me. 

And in the meantime, I wanna welcome our guest today, Vanessa Azeris.You might know her as your grateful guide. Vanessa is here to share beautiful testimonial of healing and hope with us today and all the wisdom that she has learned along the way through her own personal journey. She also shares with us practical tips and tricks to elevate our healing journey no matter where we are at in it.

I had so much fun talking to Vanessa, and I really hope that you enjoy our time together as much as I did. Vanessa, thank you so much for being here with me today. 

[00:04:32] Vanessa: Hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:04:37] Chazmith: Yeah, absolutely. 

So I think what we're gonna do like what I usually do is we're gonna start out with you getting an opportunity to share a little bit about your own personal healing and recovery story.

And yeah, just give us a brief background on what you know, what you've been through, and what are some of the steps you've taken to get to where you are. 

[00:05:00] Vanessa: Sure. Okay, so my journey, my chronic illness journey started, I would say in 2009. And it all started with these really weird unexplainable symptoms that just, made me go back and forth to the er, no doctor could explain them.

I had vestibular issues, pressure in my chest, just a bunch of different weird symptoms. None of them lined up. Different levels. Blood work was just, it was one of those things where no one could figure out why I was feeling so unwell. And prior to that, I was a federal officer and one of my functions was to air Marshall, so deport for a nationals back home.

And so I was quite fit and healthy and strong, and it was unlike me to be always sick. So at that point, I was just catching every bug and ha and getting hit really hard. So pneumonia, bronchitis, all of these different things. And it basically got to a point where I was just completely incapacitated.

I was unable to walk because of the vestibular issues. I was unable to work. I had so many weird symptoms and was just in such a deep and dark place. And it was, it basically was right before my wedding. So I had just purchased a house with my then fiance who's now my now husband.

And, I was on top of the world and it just seems like everything came to a complete crashing halt in 2009. In addition to all of these symptoms in December, I ended up catching another nasty bug. And I ended up, collapsing, having a pretty gnarly concussion and getting stitches on my face right before my wedding.

So it was just a time of just nonstop no answers. A doctor just kept prescribing me antidepressants and telling me it was all anxiety. You moved to a new house, you're getting married, this is normal. And it was not normal. So I was, very much ignored by my doctors. Nobody knew it was going on.

And it wasn't until I saw a neurologist who put two and two together. He's you just came from Vietnam, in the summer and that's when your stuff started. And I was like, yeah, that's true. And he's I think you've, you brought something back with you. And then that kind of led me into the journey of the Tropical Diseases Unit where they did so many tests and tests that weren't even available in Canada.

They sent to the C D C and they found that I had pretty deadly 70% death rate parasite. And at that point we started basically chemotherapy to eradicate it. And it was weeks before my. So my wedding came and I was very unwell from the treatment and it was just a really stressful and hard time.

And so fast forward to make a really long story short over, after we did the treatment for it, I never recovered. I expected everything to go back to the way it was, and it just never did. And with each year that passed, I felt like I, took on a new symptom or a new diagnosis. Sometime it was even monthly, I would go to the doctor like you have this now.

And it was very challenging to say the least, especially when you're starting off, your own new family basically. I'm moving into a house with my husband and it just felt like I had been sick since day one. And I did, thankfully I was able to carry two. Healthy babies. The pregnancies were really difficult and it wasn't until 2018, where things got even worse. And at this point I was like, they can't get any worse. And they did. And that was, during a time in my life where I was really stressed, I had two young children, I was already dealing with so many symptoms of nervous system dysfunction and dysregulation.

I was just popping medication as needed for just the chronic pain that I had. The migraines, the upset stomach. I was diagnosed with IBS at that point, vestibular issues, migraines & anxiety. And around that time I was working and I decided to go back to school to take some extra courses and we were doing a home renovation.

So add all these things together and it was just, Like a, just too much for my nervous system. And it basically ended up in me being knocked off my feet for months. I was so bad that I was hospitalized because I ended up developing symptoms of passing out. When I stood up, I wasn't able to stand or even sit up.

I was unable to walk because the vestibular stuff, I crawled everywhere. It was so bad that I couldn't eat and the gastroparesis was so intense. I ended up being hospitalized for over a month and a half. And it was so bad that my father, who was in Greece vacationing, was called back immediately because they basically told him, she's not looking good.

Parts of her body are failing and you need to come back. And at this point I was in the hospital completely unable to move. So I was reliant on IV fluids and needed full-time care at this point away from my kids, my husband, my poor husband was, he would do his day-to-day job and just think of how, what would funeral arrangements look like?

So I was really unwell and in that hospital visit is when I was actually diagnosed with pot syndrome and as well as small fibro neuropathy. And I did, had no clue what that was before. And the doctors really didn't either. They found it as a result of some searches on their own databases and like Google searches.

And they basically said, this is gonna be your life. You're gonna be confined to likely a bed or a wheelchair, and you're just gonna have to make the most of it. And at that point, they put me on 12 different medications for different parts of my body. And It, it was enough for me to stay alive and be able to go home and be discharged from the hospital with, regular care.

But I had to move in with my parents. At 33 years old, we all had to move in with my parents because they had to watch my children and I could not do anything for myself nor for them. So it was a really hard time. And it was around that time actually in the hospital when I Googled PotS that I came across a YouTube channel of Sarah Jackson.

And she was discussing her journey with POTS and how she recovered. And she mentioned this program called the Dynamic Neural Retraining System, or DNRS,  And I thought “this is snake oil”. There's no way that there's something that actually works. And I just left it at that. I pushed it to the back of my mind and just never looked at it again.

So the next few months unfolded pretty rough with a lot of return visits to the hospital and tweaking to medications. And, it was a really low time for me. And when I say low, I'm saying I begged God, and I didn't even believe there was a God at that point because I was going through so much.

But I begged whoever it was to please not let me wake up the next day. And I know a lot of retrains who are listening to this prob probably been in that state where they have felt this exact same despair and hopelessness. And I didn't have belief, I didn't have hope on, to be honest. What got me through is other people's belief and hope.

My family believed for me, my friends hoped for me, and people prayed for me. And it came to a point where my parents just made an arrangement at a church, an appointment with our local parish and our local priest. And they got me in the car, carried me there, and placed me on the altar. And the priest said a special prayer at that point for me.

And it was a prayer of health, a prayer of salvation, and. I wasn't very religious or anything then, but I just was like, whatever, I'll try anything at this point. And I still remember that day where I'm placed on the altar and a priest is reading a prayer and my parents are crying and everyone's crying and I'm just like, it's just over.

Life is over. And somehow in some way, it's like a glimmer of light came in and somehow I don't know, I wanna call it a hope Rope was thrown and I like grabbed on tight for dear life and I was like, oh, maybe. So I left that day with a, maybe there was something there. And it's crazy because that exact same time DNRS showed up again in my life.

So it came up through like a Facebook forum and I had not seen it since. And I decided to bite the bullet and be like, okay, I'm gonna Pay for this and buy it and see what happens. And I'll tell you, so much has happened from that point. 

[00:14:55] Chazmith: Just for time timeline,  when was that around?

[00:15:01] Vanessa: That was around 2018.

[00:15:04] Chazmith: Okay. It's interesting because, in when you study some of the experts in the world of mind body medicine, they that are now studying what they call neuroplastic pain. And they say pain loosely to encompass anything from pain to illness to disease, to any kind of symptoms in our body at, at all, if you will.

They say that, This neuroplastic pain usually presents itself in a couple different ways, and one can be they've discovered from like traumas and emotional stuff, repressed emotion or traumas over the years. But they say that sometimes neuroplastic pain literally develops from from an onset of an injury or poison or some kind of toxic exposure or some like actual real illness.

And then the brain essentially, Gets cross wired & so many things can happen, we can get so dysregulated from the stress of the sickness that we're experiencing. And so it's interesting cuz it sounds like you pick something up when you were traveling that wrecked havoc on your body that then but then even after the treatments that quote unquote should have worked, you were stuck in this loop of of all this chronic illness.

And it seems like maybe that's how that neuroplastic pain emerged within your system in a sense. Does that make sense?

[00:16:35] Vanessa: Yeah, so what's interesting is that up until that point, I wouldn't have said that there was anything wrong with me or that I had any issues. But looking back, I definitely saw signs of dysregulation from when I was a child.

They just weren't, yeah. They just weren't loud enough cuz I did have, some chronic issues as a child as well. But there is trauma so  I would have both, but yes, I agree with you. Where there are some cases where many, where something like a virus or a vaccine injury or like some sort of accident or whatever it might be, can cause something like this.

In my case, I had both and I'm, I recognize this now. I didn't then, but I definitely had seeds of dysregulation like. I had the platform for it before that that infection that I, or the parasite infection I got. 

[00:17:34] Chazmith: Yeah. And that makes sense too, because generally if you think about how severe you ended up, sick, generally you would think that more than likely we, for somebody to encounter that much illness ongoing, they probably, if you were already, if you're how do I wanna word this?

If your brain reacted like that intensely, it's, it was likely not the first conflict, or first time that you were experiencing some level of dysregulation is probably that, it's that building effect. 

[00:18:05] Vanessa: Yes, for sure. 100%. 

[00:18:07] Chazmith: Yeah. It's so crazy though, because so often when we're in it we think we, it's so easy to just be like, oh, it came outta nowhere, nothing was going on.

But then when we can look back in hindsight, after years and years of working through healing and research and learning so much, and understanding this connection where oh, it didn't really come out of nowhere. 

[00:18:29] Vanessa: So true. Yeah. 

[00:18:35] Chazmith: Okay, so 2018, at some point you have DNRS put back in front of you for the second time, and that is such a common story. I hear this all the time, and it also happened for me. I think for so many people we hear about it, we learn about it, but we, it's like that seed's just getting planted, but we're not ready for it.

We throw it to the back burner and then something happens where it comes back to the forefront, before we actually finally take that plunge. So you sign up for it and here and begins the journey of true healing. So tell us a little bit about what happens moving forward through that journey.

[00:19:11] Vanessa: Sure. Yeah, it's really interesting because even when I purchased it, I didn't start it right away.  I was still a believer, but I kept it there. I'm like, okay, this is my only option right now, but I was still very much stuck in the sickness identity. So I, you know what's funny is around the same time I went for an appointment for an assessment through like insurance or whatever.

And the doctor, so psychotherapist she started to explain the mind body connection and I got upset. I was like, what are you trying to say that my migraines don’t exist? They do that, they're not real. I got pissed. I literally yelled at her and had never felt so offended by it all.

And so that was like around the same time. But anyhow I, so like you said, those seeds were planted, right? Those seeds were planted and it all comes to a point where we have to be ready to make. This choice, right? To make this change, this shift, to say, you know what? I've got nothing else to lose and I'm gonna try this.

I've tried everything else. And that's where I was, I had tried everything else. And so I started watching those DVDs and I, at that point the brain fog was so intense that it took me two weeks to get through four days of video. And that was with me trying to rewatch and reread. Like I couldn't really read at that point.

If I did read it was like one sentence, and then I was like, what did I read? And that I'd have to go back. So it was a really slow progress. And when I started, the actual implementing the program, the tools, the exercises, I still didn't really know what I was doing, to be honest. And I needed to get a lot of support from the forums.

It was hard just because it wasn't quite clicking as much, but. I did started to no notice some shifts pretty early on. And I think the first shift that I noticed was I started to have hope and, just this understanding of what was going on because I never had answers. And when the entire, decade of illness, I didn't have answers.

It was more of a, what's wrong with me? Could it be something else? What if it is this? What if they're missing something? What are they missing? And at this point I decided to just throw everything out and was just like, okay, I'm gonna focus on this. I'm gonna believe, I'm gonna believe that this is limb system dysfunction.

And. That's where the healing began is I started to do my rounds, which are, for those of you listening there are a particular exercise that's part of the DNRS program and it consists of certain phrases that you say and, talking to your survival brain and then adding in this visualization piece.

And it was, I became pretty dedicated to it. And my family knew. I told everyone that I was doing, and I even put out a call out on Facebook and was like, Hey guys, I am doing this thing to rewire my brain in hopes that it's gonna heal me. Can I get you guys to send me any really good memories you have of me?

Because at that point, I had no memories. And part of the program involves memory recollection. And so it's crazy because I got a flood of people from like high school and childhood and friends and families sending me really good memories. And this is something I recommend to all my clients as well, or any retrains, but that's how my journey started.

I was very open. I'm like, Hey everyone, I'm doing. Let's see what happens. And slowly in time, like it wasn't a fast, healing wasn't overnight. It did take time. And there were ups and there were downs. But slowly I started to see the link between my survival brain, being completely, stuck in this survival state.

And all of the problems I had, all the symptoms that I was experiencing. And in time, slowly by slowly with elevating my mood, with incrementally training, with doing my visualizations to my rounds, I started to do more. I started to be able to do little things like cook take care of my kids. I moved back home.

That was a big one. I moved back into my house with my family and I started to be a mom again. And in time I started to drive again, and in time I started to work again. It was just like very gradual, but just so such big moments. And and yeah it's been like the best thing I ever did, I have to say for myself and for my family and for my future.

[00:23:59] Chazmith: Now were you able to eventually wean off all those medications? 

[00:24:04] Vanessa: Yes. So I was on 12 daily meds in addition to supplements galore. You know what it, you know how it is. Just, ugh, popping so many. So yeah, I was able to come off all of them. During my retraining journey, there have been times where I've had to put, temporarily go back on one for, I guess for certain issues, but then off of them again.

So I'm not really reliant on anything. But yeah, it's that was a process in itself and a very slow process because, coming off each one of those was, like an incremental training in itself. Just slowly getting used to the body, adjusting to the change and then but it's amazing what the body can do when you give it what it needs, when you give it the space, when you give it the tools.[00:24:53] 

Chazmith: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now how long did you end up doing DNRS for? 

[00:24:57] Vanessa: Yeah, so I did it really consistently for about a year and a half. And it helped immensely with pots, with, with all the other dysregulation instance, but it didn't help as much with the migraines that I was having.

It was interesting because I'm like why isn't this helping the migraine? Why am I still getting them so frequently? Everything else has really calmed down, and it's at that point that I discovered Dr. John Sarno and the Curable program. And then I started to see the emotion, the link between repressed emotions, the way that the brain might perceive certain emotions as a threat and and give us symptoms to either protect us from it or distract us from it.

So I started to see this new, again, very much neuroplasticity based, but this idea of, wow, maybe this migraine or these, this pain that I'm having is because I'm not feeling, and so it's, what's interesting is the curable app itself is what started my trauma healing journey. So I did the basics of brain training.

I did DNRS to its full capacity. And I think my nervous system, Really calmed down enough for the trauma to heal. And that's when the migraines peaked because it was like, oh, no trauma's coming up. Let's distract her because it's, this is dangerous. This is scary. And with the help of curable journaling and working on, my beliefs with a with a trauma like trained coach.

I was able to move through those and I was able to get rid of chronic migraine and and start healing my past. And that was a really big step for me. And I don't think I would've been ever been able to do that deeper work had I not done the brain retraining first, because that's really what gave me the foundation for it.

And and then allowed me to, pursue that, the trauma, to go back into my past more resource than ever and change my experience of the present.

[00:27:05] Chazmith: I love how you were able to connect the dots and see how the, like, how you were able to see that the DNRS helped your nervous system to calm down, which then allowed the trauma to surface.

Because they always say that things that are deep in our subconscious, they won't come up for us until we're ready for them. 

[00:27:25] Vanessa: Exactly. And that's exactly it. I was never, I was not ready for that stuff. I had repressed so much of it, and I think that it was a blessing that it came up. And I like that you talked about anxiety because girl that is something that I experienced and that I say I, I mean you will see it on every forum out there.

It's like you hit this really big part of your healing and then It's like the anxiety kicks in and I feel like it's this natural rite of passage in many ways. Because for me it's a symbol of moving into a next, this next part of your healing where now you have all of this new energy, right?

That maybe it was repressed and it just didn't know where to go. And then now it's trying to figure out where does it need to be placed, this recalibration period, but also when it comes to the trauma work, the deeper work that anxiety comes up as a protection, as a part of you protecting you from this past, from remembering those things.

Curable was instrumental for me in being able to recognize like, oh, I know my, my, survival brain is just trying to distract me. Hey, it's okay for me to feel these things. It's okay for me to face my reality. I can do this and I have the tools to do this. And yeah it's it's, I've seen the same as you where I know that.

Typical brain retraining is that first step that I feel like most pro programs these days have included and is necessary. So I'm like, I would never recommend jumping right into the deeper work, especially if you're already dysregulated. 

[00:28:56] Chazmith: Absolutely. Yeah. There's definitely yeah, like a nice natural progression.

Yeah. But yeah, I was definitely one of the people who experienced the physical sensations of anxiety. Like the deeper I went into the DNRS I was like, wait, now what's happening? I feel I was supposed to be feeling great, and now all of a sudden I had these crazy intense, like physical anxiety, like anxiety sensations at the time.

I didn't know how to label it, then I learned what it was which was, but it was like the next step and it helped guide me for sure. And. It's interesting because there was a point in my journey where I ended up having a crazy uptick of migraines also, and I was, and I, so I love how you were able to correlate that because I it, that's a new perspective for me.

I never looked at it that way, but at the time I just remember thinking, oh my God, I haven't had these in 17 years. Why are they coming back like as if I'm 17 again? 

[00:29:51] Vanessa: Yeah, I know that, I actually experienced that recently, and I'm gonna be authentic and honest with you guys because I feel like that's, how we need to be.

But like life happens even on the other side of healing. And I, last year this time my father passed away suddenly. And with the whole. Pandemic and everything going on, it was just a really difficult time for everyone. But I noticed an increase in some sort of dysregulation after that.

And what's interesting is the body, we know, the body remembers, we know the body keeps the score. And this when this month came around this year, so leading up to his one year anniversary, I got this like bloody migraine that I haven't had in four years. I had not taken any meds, I had not taken anything and it like hit me hard and I was like, why am I getting this,  it’s weird.

Where's this coming from? And then I realized the date. I realized, this time of week I realized what this was and I was like, oh, this is a really hard time. And my survival brain is like amping up for this. It re remembers. It knows, and it's trying so hard to protect me. And I had to really do that work again where I was like, oh, I'm fully resourced now.

I have the tools, I know what to do and it's okay for me to feel. And then doing that, that work that we learn in Nicole Sachs or curable where it's like I have emotions now that need to come out. And by working through those and journaling out and feeling them and supporting myself through them, we were able to get through those little dips or whatever you wanna call them.

And it's not that I went back in my healing, it's just that this was an expression from my survival brain who was trying to protect me again. And now I knew what it was. So it doesn't, I don't fear these things. Like I did in the past. If that makes sense. 

[00:31:44] Chazmith: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that takes the power away.

And they say that like, when we can get to that place of indifference, that's where the magic can really happen. 

[00:31:52] Vanessa: Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:31:53] Chazmith: Yeah. Wow. Good job on recognizing that and then being able to take the necessary steps. For sure. Thank you. So what. What these days, because like you said, life does happen.

We're always gonna experience new challenges at some point, no matter how hard we try to control and create a life that's perfect. It's not reality, right? Like people will pass on and you might lose like a loved one or whether it's a person, a pet sometimes unexpectedly you could lose a job.

There's an infinite number of things that could happen that could impact us cuz we are emotional beings here having this experience. So what are some of the daily practices that you have today to help support your nervous system and stay regulated and to build that resilience ongoing to help you then be able to navigate these challenging times in life?

[00:32:52] Vanessa: Yeah, so I, I like to see my daily practice as very intuitive. Prior to. To my father's passing. Last year I wasn't really doing much retraining, but I was doing a little bit of somatic work, some vagus nerve work and a visualization cuz visualizations are my favorite. And after I contracted the virus and was, labeled as a long hauler, which I didn't accept, I went back to a more a little more.

Strict brain rate training. So I was doing two rounds a day, two full rounds a day, which were the DNRS typical ones. And then doing a lot of body-based things to help release the trauma from the grief. And so it looked like, intuitively, what am I needing in this moment and how can I give that to myself?

The inner child work came very in handy. That was like how this last year has been, right? As I'm processing grief and we can't retrain, we can't rewire grief. This just doesn't happen like that. But we can support ourselves in a way where it doesn't consume our entire nervous systems, and we go back into that dysregulated state.

So what that has looked like for me has been morning, every morning. I love to start my day off with a really gentle somatic, like five, 10 minutes. Doing, certain somatic experiencing exercises that I've learned from various different places like Peter Levine working with a somatic therapist in the past.

Just little things that I've picked up that I find intuitively feel good and help me release. And then I d I always do a visualization, so I always try and use my visualization tools to work towards, the life that I'm looking to have. Prayer is a huge anchor in my day, so that's another, non-negotiable throughout my day.

And then I see, how it goes. So if I'm noticing I'm having like a. Crazy busy day or something unexpected happened. Like you said, I've got two young kids, there's like a lot of drop offs, there's a lot of phone calls from school, there's a lot of appointments and extracurricular.

Even while I'm in the car, waiting to pick them up from school, I will do maybe some breathing or some gentle massage on my ear or some vagus nerve exercises. So the way I see it is we wanna resource ourselves throughout our day. We don't wanna pay attention to our nervous system only when it's freaking out.

We wanna be able to offer it a little bit of cushion, right? We wanna be able to say Hey I'm gonna love on you even when you're feeling good, right? So I see it like the way you would treat a child. It's I'm not only gonna pay attention to you when you're crying and. And you're having a tantrum.

I'm gonna love you throughout the day. So how can you show your nervous system love? And I see this as a lifestyle, not as a retraining routine or as a certain amount of things that you have to do in a day, but intuitively tuning in. What do I need in this moment? Maybe I do want to rest and I'm gonna make it a choice and do that.

Or maybe I am feeling a little more. Activated. So I'm gonna do a couple deep, 10 minutes of deep breathing and bring myself back here. So that's like how I approach this, nervous system love or self-love, whatever you wanna call it. It's not a typical brain retraining daily practice that I have, but it's very unique to me.

And I, this is, what I really recommend and what my goal is for every person I work with is to come look, come to a place where you've created something that fits into your day, as if it's just a part of you and it feels right, it feels good, it doesn't feel like that chore. So this is I don't even wanna call it a maintenance practice, I just wanna call it just, being there to support your nervous system and give it the, the best resources you can for whatever happens in life.

[00:36:47] Chazmith: How do you help somebody navigate determining what feels best for them when they don't really know, when they're like, oh, I don't really know what feels best, or I don't know what I need. Like, how do you help them to be empowered to to go inward and de and discern what it is that they actually do? 

[00:37:05] Vanessa: Oh, this is all trial and error for myself as well. If I were to ask for me, a lot of this started with inner child work. Getting to know those parts of us that are really screaming for our attention and then tuning into them like what do you really want from me in this moment?

What is it that you're needing and then trying things. So this is very, even when it comes to tools in general, the people that I work one-on-one with, we try a lot of things out because not every program we know this, and I know, this not, there's no one size fits all to any program. And there's some exercises that could be triggering to others and then some exercises that feel so, so nourishing.

And so I we basically try a lot of different things out and through certain processes of tuning in and awareness as to, how our body is reacting we usually get a good sense as to whether it is helping the nervous system or isn't. So we do know intuitively, it's just a matter of tuning out all of the noise and coming into the body.

That embodiment practice is so important. And also visualizing too, like what I like to try things on from a visualization perspective as well for them. Like how, what do you really see yourself doing in a day? What are your goals throughout the day? If you were healed right now, what would your day look like?

And how can we fit in some love into there or some support? So it's, I don't know if I answered your question, but it's very unique. And it's a process of discovery and unfolding as you're, doing this work and trying things. 

[00:38:41] Chazmith: Yeah. No, and I think that's all really important to h important to highlight because I think that a lot of people sign up for one program or another, right?

And we know that each program has like its own guidelines. Oh, you need to do this and follow this and do this just like this. And I think some people I've witnessed so many people get so stressed over feeling like they need to put their pressure, like this pressure on themselves to do this said program perfectly.

And you'll see it all the time, like people like what if I can't do this like this? Or what if I can't do this perfectly? Or what if I can't do it this many times? And it's like when you look at the fact there's a bunch of programs out there and people are having success in all of them, and they're all different in their own way.

So then I always wanna encourage people that this is where we get to take our power back. We gave it away to all the doctors and all these other people. We don't need to give it away to whoever the person was that designed one specific program. We get to try things on and trust that if something's not working for you and maybe it worked for five other people, but you're feeling too activated from it, that's okay.

It's not, there's nothing wrong with you and there's nothing wrong with that program, that particular exercise. Just not, it's not supportive for you right now. And it's okay cuz you can find something that is. 

[00:39:58] Vanessa: Yes. I love that you said that. I really do because I, it's such an important point because I see so many people coming to me or just messaging me with absolute pressure in healing burnout where they just feel like the stakes are so high and if I don't do it like this, I'm not gonna heal.

And just, you know how that internal dialogue, keeps running inside of us. But the truth is, if it doesn't, Feel with you, feel good for you, or if there's a part of the program that doesn't resonate with your beliefs, you can change that. You can add in things that do resonate with you that are a part of you.

You can bring in your personality, you can tie in the things you love and you can make it not just this, daunting practice that you have to do everything every day, but it can become more of a lifestyle that you actually look forward to doing. Yeah. Instead of a task. 

[00:40:51] Chazmith: Yeah, absolutely. And because one part doesn't work doesn't mean you have to throw the whole thing out the window and go try the next thing.

You don't have to like program hop. You can just like really, like you said, make it your own in a sense. Yeah. I just think that's an important thing cuz I'm all about personal empowerment and I just feel so sad when I see people constantly giving it away and yeah, it's good to make it, like you said, make it something that you actually look forward to. 

[00:41:14] Vanessa: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Because it can feel so, so it's like such a chore. 

[00:41:21] Chazmith: And with that comes resistance. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. So I know the last time we talked a lot about resilience actually. And one of the things that we focused on that I'd like for us to touch base on again, is we talked about how sometimes when we start to do these programs, say a brain retraining program, like whether it's DNRS or something else out there, we have a lot of success and that's great, but I feel that there's sometimes not necessarily a lot of guidance in transitioning.

Out of like full-time brain retraining into living life, going back into our lives again. And so like we've already touched base on, I didn't realize or have, didn't know that there was a chance that this like high level anxiety could make show up. You didn't know that you were gonna suddenly get these like intense outbursts of like migraines.

And some people find this happens a lot where they have a huge reduction in symptoms, but then they, and they feel like they're on, like they're just flying high and they're great and then they start to reduce some of the time they're spending on their healing and start to say yes to living.

But then they have this uptick in various symptoms and it's really hard for people to sometimes go through that transition. Do you have. Through your experience, any tips, tricks, and support you can offer people listening to help them as they navigate that transition? 

[00:42:55] Vanessa: Yeah, so I, I think we all get to that place in our healing journey where we're, we've come a long way, but we're not quite where we want to be.

And we're in this like middle place where there's still, some, some things going on. Maybe you're not where you exactly wanna be, but you don't wanna devote, an hour every day to doing rounds or whatever it might be. So what I've seen most often is a lot of fear attached to this, to letting a round go.

So I've seen people being scared to drop a round. So in, for those listening in DNRS you have to do an hour of rounds a day. Sometimes it looks like four a day. And what I like to do is incrementally training to untrain. So what that would look like would be dropping one round off, a day and or, sorry, one a week.

Pretty much like you're doing it incrementally. So you would drop a round, say that week you're only doing three rounds, and maybe instead of that round you're gifting something to yourself. A really good and positive experience because healing doesn't have to look like. Sitting in a room doing visualizations or tapping or in a child work healing can also look like going out and living life.

Going for a walk, doing something, meeting with a friend. Those things are all healing as well. And so that's my first thing is getting, starting to experiment and letting go of the need. I don't need to do all of these rounds anymore. And I'm fully resourced and I know if something were to come about in my nervous system were to start talking to me loudly again.

I know what to do now. I know how to listen and I have all the resources I need. So that, that coming from this place of agencies oh, I know better now so I don't need to be afraid of these. And recognizing is there these, are there limiting beliefs at play? Do you believe that if you stop retraining, you're gonna end up back where you were?

And if that is the case, then I would definitely look into doing some deeper work, maybe tapping those beliefs out, maybe journaling them, seeing where they're coming from, seeing what's at the root of them. Additionally, when you're starting to live life again, you're going to experience new situations.

And those new situations are new for your nervous system as well for your survival brain. So as you're doing these new things, maybe your nervous system might overreact here and there. And this is where I encourage taking or trying to have some recovery time after these new things. So for instance, say, you're feeling so much better, you are doing all of these things and you're going on your first trip.

Maybe you're starting whatever, to get a couple symptoms that are like, Hey, remember me, old neurology is popping up, right? Because you're doing all of these things well, you know what to do at that point. We know that they're not gonna take you over or to, or that you're gonna go back to that place because you know what to do.

So I would say go back to basics. Maybe do use some of your tools at that point, but always allow for that recovery time. Meaning say you have a really busy day ahead or a really stressful day ahead schedule in some time. To release, to let go of activation energy, within whatever way that you feel you need to, whether it's somatics, whether it's exercise, whether it's meditation, whether it's deep breathing.

We wanna be able to weave those into your day as recovery times for like really stressful or not even stressful, like absolutely new experiences that maybe your nervous system just haven't, hasn't had a chance to, experience before or in a long time. So having this adaptability is like, knowing I can do these things and and I know what to do if old neurology pops in.

I know what this is and I know what to do. I dunno if that answered your question, but 

[00:46:54] Chazmith: It does. Yeah. It's great because I think that what we can do sometimes is and it all comes back down to fear, right? Like you just gave some great examples and if we don't know, cuz I think that's the problem is like, if we don't know to expect that things could happen, what happens is we get a new symptom and suddenly we go into fear mode and then we go into oh my God, I did something wrong.

Or we think, oh, this is outside of my training zone, and then we withdraw again. And I, what I see happen when that is, the response is like getting stuck in that weird limbo where you like wanna take the next step, but you're so afraid and then you start to like associate things as all out of the training zone again.

Wow. And You said examine beliefs? Yeah. So important, right? Because our beliefs are super freaking powerful. So if I believe something's outta my training zone verse, you said it so lightly okay, the brain's just like having a memory or so it's just being triggered again.

But it doesn't mean you're outta your training zone. You didn't do anything wrong necessarily. And it's just learning how to bring that ease back in and create that safety and and yeah, just not going into that fear constantly, or not like believing you said to notice if you're believing that you, if you start to stop doing as much healing work, that you're not going to heal well, that's a really strong belief.

And if you believe that it's gonna be, it's gonna present itself as a challenge in that journey. 

[00:48:20] Vanessa: Exactly. Yep. 

[00:48:22] Chazmith: I think those are great great tips. And as far as say somebody's doing DNS or Gupta or any of the Brain re training programs out there, what, and say they're listening to this and they're like, oh, okay, so there's other layers, there's other steps.

And they're thinking when will, when do I know when it's good to transition or maybe peel back the next layer or try something new or add somatics into the experience? Since we know that traditional brainer training is more top down, what are some. 

[00:48:55] Vanessa: F 

[00:48:55] Chazmith: like some of your thoughts on what people could be noticing or observing or looking out for in their body, in their mind, and in their life as an indicator or cue that they would be ready to like, take that leap and start integrating some other tools.

[00:49:14] Vanessa: Yeah I know that the typical brain retraining starts doesn't really include the somatics, but now that I know more about, that's the, the mind body connection and how it is, how important it is to find our, find safety within our bodies. Again, I actually do incorporating, even at the beginning some, vagus nerve work, some gentle somatic practices, maybe orienting or whatever it might be, to just help you come back into your body. And so I think these can be used again, nothing really intense. We're not gonna be going into trauma or anything like that. But just these subtle signals of safety that we can send to our survival brain through our bodies. I think that I really do like how some programs are incorporating both top-down and bottom up in the beginning stages.

Not to say that, you, we know so many people have healed with just DNRS or Gupta, but I do, looking back as my own personal preference, I feel like adding in a little bit of that bottom-up approach can help. Now as we're going into to deeper work, I know for myself it was a, I just couldn't ignore it.

I got to a place where my body knew. To bring it up. I started to notice, more a tension. I started to notice different thinking old memories that surface that I had not had in, I really just didn't remember I had repressed them. And this was for me, really pretty in your face sign that, oh, we have to deal with this stuff now.

And it was things that I just couldn't ignore. And so be on the lookout for that. Obviously again, we don't wanna rush into anything and that there's more time than you think there is. We don't have to. And I've also seen so many people do typical, just regular brainer training and not have to do any deeper work.

So it is so in, right? It's so individual and like I would say give it time. Like really give whatever program you're doing, whatever practice you're doing. Give it at least that six months. Give it the chance and don't be so eager to jump onto something else. And that's what I see a lot, the program hopping.

It is, it's a real thing. And you're going from program to program because we just have, we wanna hope, right? We see these testimonials and we're like, oh, this one isn't working. Okay, how long did you do it for? Okay I wanna know how you did it. Like, how many rounds did you do a day?

What did it look like for you? Did you really understand it? And so I think that like whatever program you're doing clearly they all work, they all do something. They're, they all rewire your brain. It's just a matter of seeing which one, what fits for you, what parts of it you do and you don't like.

And giving it the opportunity, giving your brain the opportunity to rewire and not rushing to do all of the deeper work. When you, when it's time, you will know. Like I'm telling you, you will know when it's time to go deeper. And if you've been doing a program for a really long time and you haven't gotten to where you've wanted to be, this is where I recommend, going with a coach.

Getting  to really talk about what it is. What are your goal healing goals? What are, where's the resistance? What's happening for you? What is and what isn't working? And this is more like when I see people who have been like, say, doing d n s for two years, and they're like, I'm still dealing with the same symptoms.

[00:52:48] Chazmith: Yeah. It's the opposite, right? There's the people who, there's the program hopping going from one to the next without giving anything a full chance. And then there's the opposite spectrum, when you're like, okay, it's been three years and it's not really getting you where you wanna be, so maybe this is where you start pursuing some other self-healing outlet.

[00:53:06] Vanessa: Exactly. Yeah. And then that point you can and it's good to freshen things up. I don't think your healing practice should look the same it did three years ago that it does now, nor six months ago. I like to constantly evolve and, drop things, add something new in, just like exercise.

If you're going to the gym and doing the exact same weight exercise that you've done for the past, like six months, you're probably not gonna see the results that you're wanting to see. And I think the core of it, again, the framework should be pretty consistent, but playing around, adding in new ideas, adding in some more fun things, like we want it to be variable.

Like we wanted to be different and to, we wanna keep learning basically, right? Get those new neural pathways going. That's I guess my biggest, or one of my biggest advice I can give on that subject. 

[00:53:55] Chazmith: Yeah, no, thank you. Is there anything else like that I'm not asking you about or that we're missing that you think is just a really valuable insight for people who are out there at any point in their healing journey?

[00:54:07] Vanessa: Oh yeah. I wanted to just touch on compassion. Oh. Yes, please. Yeah. I noticed that, and this was for myself as well. I'm gonna be honest. I did not have much compassion for myself, and that was really hard on myself, even from a young kid. But when I started my retraining journey, that like militant attitude came with, and when, say I didn't get around in today, I was really hard on myself or when I would dip or have, some sort of crash in, initially I was really hard at what did I do, what did I do wrong?

And I see this a lot and that's why I'm bringing it up. There's such a lack of self-compassion. We're so easy to give it, freely to others, but we can't tour ourselves. And wherever that comes from, I'm sure there's a root in it somewhere in your history, but this compassion is what is so needed in this healing realm.

In whatever practice, whatever program you're doing, the compassion piece where you're, you know what? I showed up today. Maybe I didn't do it all, but that's okay and I'm gonna love myself anyways. Or today was a harder day. It was more challenging. And you know what I love? I love myself for getting through it and handling it the way I did.

Or, just what do I need in this moment? I am really listening to my needs and I need a hug, our, I need some connection with a friend or whatever it is that you're needy. Learning to give yourself these things, not punish yourself for, a lack of something or whatever it might be.

Getting to really connect. With you and giving yourself the compassion, the love, the understanding, helping yourself, feeling like seeing yourself, hearing yourself, right? Because we all grew up, most of us in this journey weren't seen or heard as kids. That's what I've seen as a, common theme.

But this inner child and compassion piece- it’s really missing in a lot of programs. We are all way too hard on ourselves and we're taking the healing work way too seriously. And and it's just adding an unnecessary stress to us. So more compassion, more ease, more grace, recognizing we all have our own pace and we don't have to compete with anyone else.

And whatever you did today, if you did it with love and compassion for yourself, and you showed up for you, you did it out of love for you, then that's what matters.

[00:56:45] Chazmith: Thank you so much for sharing that cuz it, I mean it's ah, it's so true. It's so true. It's so true. All everybody could use more of that self-compassion and it's not selfish and it's not self-centered and it's so important.

It's like what I was saying earlier about going into your healing with this perfection type A- achiever mentality and not having grace for yourself. It's every day our best is not gonna be the same. My best today might not look the same as yesterday's best, and that's okay. And yeah.

I know, I feel like overall I do these days a pretty good job with self-compassion, but I'm also human and I'm not always great. I literally noticed it yesterday and I'm so grateful that I caught myself within minutes. I've been like really trying to make this commitment to myself to try to get out and go dancing like once a week because I know that dancing brings such an absolute high level of joy for me in my life.

With that said, it's usually later in the evenings, it's cooler, now it's dark really early. I'm still working through some neuroplastic fatigue and I know. One side of the spectrum to actually like, feel the fatigue and choose my joy and go out and say yes to like dancing, if it's even for an hour is very valuable for me in my retraining.

But I also, understand that sometimes it's still hard to say yes, even though I know I love it once I'm there. And yesterday was one of those days like, I worked late Saturday. I didn't get like a full night's sleep Saturday night and I was quite busy Sunday. And then when it was time to go dancing, it had cooled down, it was pitch black, dark.

I just felt this urge just curl up in a ball and I was. Struggling with the motivation to go. And then I noticed that I started beating myself up cuz I'm like, this is your joy and this is, and you, how are you gonna you keep telling yourself that you're gonna do these things for joy, but then you're not doing them.

And so here I am taking something that was supposed to be for my joy and beating myself up over it, and I caught myself and I stopped and I was like, you know what, no, we're not doing this. This is okay. We're going to dance again. We're gonna dance a lot. And it's okay if it takes us time and it's okay if we Ms.

Weeks. And it's okay if sometimes, we say no. And I thought maybe for the winter, I. Like I just do some exploring and see if there's anything even earlier or like daytime opportunity or maybe I take a Zumba class, which isn't quite the same, but it's still that, in that realm.

But it was just nice to finally catch myself so quick and be like, no, we're not doing this. We're not beating ourself up. Be, we're not like, we're not having this negative mindset that I'm letting myself down cuz I didn't go dancing. I. Once, or even if it's twice, it's it's okay. Just like all the tools we use for healing everything, it's like there's not a rush.

Doesn't have to all happen right now, and I can just have grace for wherever I'm at. 

[00:59:59] Vanessa: Yes, exactly. I love that example. And I think it's so relatable. Even just to retraining in general, right? When we just don't do all the things. I didn't do all the things today. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. There's always tomorrow.

Yeah. And as long as you showed up in some way for yourself, which you sh which you basically did, you showed us that you did show up for yourself, you caught that, that inner dialogue, that negative inner dialogue, and you spoke your truth, right? And you recognize that it's just a part of you that's trying to protect you.

And it's just old, these old patterns that we're so used to that we're wiring out and sometimes they pop up to say hello and that compassion instead of that, like you said, that punishing or like anger, whatever it might be that's coming up. It's the compassion that wins, right?

It's so powerful.

[01:00:48] Chazmith: Yea Absolutely. Yeah. I felt really proud of myself yesterday for catching that.

[01:00:51] Vanessa: Yeah, well done. 

[01:00:55] Chazmith: And then I was like, and now I have permission to just go curl up and snuggle my dog and read a book. And that's okay too, cuz that's also fun. 

[01:01:03] Vanessa: Yes. I've watched a lot of Hallmark movies this past week because it was especially hard with an anniversary of my father.

And I gave myself full permission. I'm like, I've got the tree lit, I've got like hot cocoa and, hallmark Christmas movies going like for a few hours one day. And I was like, I didn't feel bad at all. Whereas in the past I would've been like I didn't do laundry, I didn't cook, I didn't dis you know what, this is just as important.

It really is. My body, my soul, my mind needed it and I gave it to myself. And that is a true measure of healing. So you're doing amazing. Ah, thanks. 

[01:01:43] Chazmith: What is the one message you would share with the world if you were only able to share one message for the rest of your life? 

[01:01:51] Vanessa: I wanna, I want that to be a message of hope because I've been in that dark place and I know so many are.

And I would just say that there is always a reason to hope in that there are so many people out there like myself, giving hope ropes, and we're doing it for a reason because we've been there. So look to the ones who have been in your place and see their recovery, their healing has proof that it can be true for you two.

And it's only just a matter of time. Yeah, I guess I'll love you with that.  

[01:02:29] Chazmith: I like that. And add, like we were already just saying, don't compare yourself though to their journey. Yes. Yes, exactly. Don't compare yourself and beat yourself up over it if it doesn't happen at the same timeline. 

[01:02:40] Vanessa: Yeah, exactly.

[01:02:42] Chazmith: Yeah. Awesome. I'm so grateful that we got to do this and again.

[01:02:48] Vanessa: Me too. I think a second time was even better! 

[01:02:51] Chazmith: We're practiced now. Yeah. But I appreciate you. I feel like this journey has really that you've embarked on, has really brought you to this place of so much wisdom and understanding of the mind, body and healing.

And yeah, I just wanna say thank you for being here to share some of that with people who are out there listening. 

[01:03:12] Vanessa: My absolute pleasure. It's honestly an honor every time I do one of these interviews, cuz I know it will reach a different audience. And that my mission is to give hope.

I appreciate you and thank you for having me. Of course. 

[01:03:26] Chazmith: All right, that's a wrap once again, as always, with each and every episode, I hope you found today's insightful, inspiring, or hopeful for wherever you are at your journey. I always. Want you to walk away from our time together, feeling more motivated, more ready, more inspired, with a better sense of direction, possibility, and hope.

Please consider helping me to continue to spread this message of healing and possibility as far and wide as possible. That means share this episode on your social media, share it with friends and family, share it in your healing or health groups. Also, I did start a private Facebook group where we could be more connected.

Please consider joining that so that I can get to know you all better. And in this group, you can make requests such as asking questions for future guests, making requests for future guests volunteering to be a future guest, and so much more. Have fun exploring what it means to love yourself in a variety of ways.

And until next time, make this week.